This episode features a conversation with Chris Altizer and Gloria Johnson-Cusack, authors of the book Growing the Elephant – Increasing Earned Advantage for All. Chris and Gloria reveal the impetus behind writing their book and the distinction between earned and unearned advantages. They also discuss the importance for leaders of being humble and how to have courageous and productive conversations about diversity, equity, and inclusion. Discover why talking about advantage can be more helpful than talking about privilege.
Listen in now, or read on for the transcript of our conversation:
CHRIS ALTIZER: There's an ancient proverb or story in the Indian culture around six wise blind men and the elephant. You're probably familiar, but each of them grab a part of the elephant and they go, "Oh, an elephant is like a snake." "Oh, the elephant's like a spear." "Oh, the elephant's like a whip," because they're each grabbing different body parts. Each of them are right. All of them are wrong. And that is another important framework for us around this whole conversation, is that whatever your experience is, hey, your lived experience is your lived experience. For me to deny that is, that's wrong.
DOUG FORESTA: The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, best-selling author, and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures and belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, on to the episode.
Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. In this episode, you will hear a conversation between Jennifer and Chris Altizer and Gloria Johnson-Cusack. Chris and Gloria are authors of the book Growing the Elephant: Increasing Earned Advantage for All. Chris and Gloria talk about the elephant, which is earned and unearned advantages. They discuss the importance for leaders of practicing humility, how to have courageous and productive conversations about DEI, and why talking about advantages can be more helpful than talking about privilege. All this and more, and now, onto the conversation.
JENNIFER BROWN: Gloria and Chris, welcome to The Will to Change.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Thank you.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Thank you. We're happy to be here.
JENNIFER BROWN: It's good to get to chat with you about this topic we share a deep passion for, which is earned and unearned but especially earned advantage for all, in your new book, Growing the Elephant. And I haven't had the pleasure to meet you both yet, but this book came to my attention and I just thought it was the perfect topic for our audience on The Will to Change. It's something that we talk a lot about, I teach a lot on, that I am still puzzling through in my own journey and figuring out how I can be most effective as someone who speaks about advantages from the stage, and does so in a way that honors all of my identities and all the identities of the audience that I'm speaking to.
So I was really excited to read your book, and to me this is such a frontier topic. To me this is 2.0, 3.0. It shouldn't be because we should have been talking about it all along, but I don't think that we've been talking about this topic in a helpful, constructive way. And I know that your book really advances that, so I appreciate it so much. And I appreciate that you wrote it together, so let's start there. How did you meet? And maybe share a little bit about your background. Were you in the DEI space? How did you decide that this was the topic you really wanted to take on, and why together?
CHRIS ALTIZER: So Gloria first? Me first?
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yeah, whatever you want.
CHRIS ALTIZER: All right. Well, so I'll start because I'm a white guy. That's what I do. I go first, right?
It's funny, Jennifer. If anyone would've said five years ago that Chris Altizer was going to write a book on diversity, equity, inclusion, many eyes would have rolled, and mine among them, mine among them. This is not a space that I thought I would find myself in. I'm retired, recovering HR executive. I had senior vice president roles of HR at Pfizer. I've worked at Aetna. I've been in different places, and I teach at FIU, Florida International University.
But coming into this work for me was, it's been a long journey. It begins in the beginning of the book, which is my own reaction to some of the stuff called privilege, which I projected out of hand, and then there each step along the way. And fortunately one of those steps, a pivotal step for me, was meeting Gloria. I got invited to join FIU'S Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Committee. And with the ask, when I was asked, I said, "You all are looking for a middle-aged, straight white guy?" And they said, "Yeah." I said, "Boom, I'm it. I'm your guy." That was where I met Gloria, and we had begun talking about privilege and the challenges with the construct of it and more about the reactions to it.
And then I'll invite Gloria to give her perspective on how we moved on from there.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yeah. Well, and there, the fun began because I distinctly recall the first conversation being if we're going to work together, we got to not deal what that word privilege because it's a non-starter. It's not helpful, no. And fortunately, Chris had done a lot of work thinking about different ways to frame it. So he really brought me along in understanding the earned, unearned advantage framework. And it was a very easy partnership for us to come alongside each other and do the book at the time. I was senior advisor to the president of Florida International University, and we had our hands full because both of us were focused on developing better, different new strategies around diversity, equity, and inclusion. Florida International is a very large institution, the fourth largest public university in the country, serves more Hispanics than any other higher ed institution in the country and based in Miami, Florida. So connect the dots about all of the different dynamics that might be involved in working in that. We were fast friends, and this has just been a totally joyful experience.
My identity caused me to be in the DEI space because I woke up like this. I'm African-American, indigenous Haliwa-Saponi, which is a tribe in North Carolina. I grew up working for then became distinctly privileged through lots of wonderful opportunities and have worked in all sectors, the private sector as a lobbyist for charitable organizations and foundations, and several other spaces. And everywhere I've gone, I've had to find ways to navigate, especially in positions of power, many of the principles that we try to address here.
So my instinct is to build bridges, as Chris said. Our commitment is to meet people where they are, and that means pivoting from, not focusing on all the reasons why there should be blame and shame, but for people who are of goodwill to say, "Okay, now what? And here are the tools." And so we use, yes, the mindfulness approach. We share archetypes of different kinds of people with different identities and lived experiences, method to the madness. It's easier for people to talk about those hypothetical folks than about themselves as they're coming into the space. And then we have all kinds of frameworks that we try to use, especially to wrestle with what I know you've spent a lot of time on, which is getting people to think about power and how power can be shared to have better outcomes for all.
JENNIFER BROWN: That's right. Oh, I love it. Can you back up? And we were just talking before the call, the historical attitude towards teaching about privilege and what, as you call it, advantage, which I understand the re-terminology, and the importance of that too. Because I agree, the baggage makes so much noise that it's almost like you can't have a productive conversation about this topic without calling it something different. And good news, we have a lot of vocabulary to choose from to describe this concept. But what do you think has been missing from the way that we've talked about this, the way that we've taught it, and hence what felt important. You call it the elephant in the room, but what felt important to flesh out that hadn't been fleshed out adequately or problem solved around in the literature, in the teaching, and et cetera?
CHRIS ALTIZER: I'll start with it. The book begin, the opening line of the book is, "Thank God that's over."
JENNIFER BROWN: You don't even have to say anymore.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Right?
JENNIFER BROWN: Because I could-
CHRIS ALTIZER: Yeah. He's like, "Oh, I know what that is." That's Robert as he leaves the DEI program. And then goes on to say, "This privileged stuff is crap. I've earned everything I have and you can't tell me different." That's the opening line. Now, our other characters go on to bring their perspectives to it as well. But one of the fundamental challenges to the construct is first the word itself. If you are a recently unemployed warehouse supervisor in the Midwest and you are a white male and you're trying to figure out how you're going to stay employed, when the word privilege is used, it simply does not work.
But let's take a step back for all of us who have... Take me, so white male, heterosexual, extroverted, born with access to clean water and clean food and public schools. And Jennifer, if I was three inches taller, I'd have it all, right? That's all the intersection of all the different pieces that give advantage that I didn't earn. I didn't do anything to get it. I just have it. But getting me to face that has been the real long journey. Getting to, "Okay." So how do I recognize this in a way that allows me to be with it without immediately rejecting it? And that's where earned and unearned comes from. If we begin the conversation by saying, "Okay. Well first, can we all agree that you can earn advantages in this life, whoever you are, wherever you're from? You can earn through your hard work, your skills, your relationships, et cetera." And if we can all agree to that, because most folks we find can go, "Yeah, people can." All right, great. Take a breath, which we literally do in the book. We teach you to take a breath. And then it's okay.
So if we can all earn, let's talk about the opportunities to earn advantage and the role of unearned advantage and the impact that each of those components that... And when folks say to me, "Well, I don't know if I believe that." I say, "Well, just look it up," because I'm not going to spend an hour trying to convince you that people who look like me have advantages. Because if you don't know that, look it up. It's not going to be an hour-long lecture because what we realize is that making better arguments and stronger cases does not work because, and this is another part of the philosophy to the book, is we believe that people are their own best teachers. I've been teaching martial arts for many years. I teach yoga now. What I've learned is that people teach themselves best when you give them better questions. So our goal is to give them rather than, "Well, let me prove it to you." That doesn't work. And we've learned that in the age of the last five years or so. Better facts do not convince anyone, so let me provide better questions.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: I would also add that what's different about our approach and the way it has been approached by other people with the best of intentions is that we try to meet people with where they are with regards to their why. It's not a high-handed, moralistic, economic argument, historical. All those things matter. They will come into the conversation, especially as people reflect on their own experiences with lots of exercises we have there. But we recognize that people come to this issue and hopefully to the conversation, to their reflection, with several whys. The why may be that as the Robert the white male, or Maria his Hispanic woman from Venezuela who's a business person, another archetype, or Yvonne who's the head of a nonprofit, they are all looking for innovation and competitiveness as leaders of their organization. There may be others who come to this work because as leaders in philanthropy or the nonprofit space, they want to strengthen communities. And so they know that of course having equality, more equality of opportunity for all matters.
It may be that people are coming to this with a very specific focus on systems change. That's like me a whole lot. I'm thinking about creating change at scale. Well, if you want to influence the people who make policy or if you are a person in a policy-making role where you set policy around practices and what have you, we think this reflection and understanding about others is going to be important. And what we're most excited about, we're right here on the heels of elections still panning out. But we're excited because we're seeing more evidence yet and again that there are lots of people out there who want to find a better way. So maybe just wherever you sit in your community or your organization or your family, you want to be the one who's not casting, cursing the dark, but wanting to bring light to the situation. And we're trying to create space for all of those people to come in with those different intentions and to find each other.
JENNIFER BROWN: To find each other, to find a voice in the change equation. I think the reason I'm so excited about books like this and the fact that you're getting this out there is there's so many folks who've been sitting on the sidelines not knowing how to interact or to jump in or whether they can or what they would use if they did, and whether they're welcome too. To me, I feel that the audiences I speak to, I know them so well. Intuitively at this point, after doing this for 20 years, I can read their minds and their hearts. I know where they're stuck. And the earned and unearned, the question which is a beautiful one, which is can we agree for today to acknowledge that this is true and that it doesn't make any of us bad people.
It is as I call it the accident of birth. What circumstances, what skin color, what ability, what sexual orientation and gender identity, these things are so random in a way. But then over the course of our lifetimes, we accumulate the earned. And I would say the unearned informs the earned. It's the unearned is the moving sidewalk underneath some of us that's speeding us along and enabling us to gather the earned, I think, advantages. But the radical idea here is that we all have a level of earned and actually unearned too.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yes.
JENNIFER BROWN: So each one of us, regardless of our skin color and all these other identities that we get obsessed about, and then we think of privileged and non-privileged is like this false binary about those people have it, those people don't. But I'm trying to break that down because I am both LGBTQ and I was born into an upper middle class family. So those two things have tempered each other. They have informed each other, and both are so true about me. And both come with I think a playbook to utilize in any system that I find myself in and in shifting whatever I want to shift, which is my why.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yes. And those identities don't have to limit your role.
JENNIFER BROWN: Right.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: You define the role based on where you sit and the situation that surrounds you. And so the working with unearned advantage and what we describe as the self-awareness, awareness of self and awareness of self on others, is pretty key to what you are describing. Because the same Gloria, this Gloria is not going to show up the same in every situation. It depends on who I'm working with and my having to meet them. And any person of color, I will wear that hat now, will tell you that living in this culture globally and in the United States, it is an acquired skill, ability, gift to know that you have to read the room in every situation.
And also wearing that hat of a woman of color with a background that you've just heard me described where I've had lots of advantage and lots of unearned and lots of earned advantage, I have to say how important it is, Jennifer, that there are people like you who are owning the fact that there are certain contributions that they can make based on their own identities that help them meet others in the room without placing all of the onus on people who don't have unearned advantage to carry the conversation, to be the voice, to come up with the solutions, to create the momentum in whatever community or organization we find ourselves in.
And so that's what's been quite encouraging for us, is that even before the book was published, people were wanting more information. "Can you come talk? Can you share? Can you help our facilitators know how to use these tools that you've got?" Because it leads room for lots of people to lead and follow in this work and not feel that they have to be experts on all of the things that got us here. But let's just develop some skills and some mindsets, some intentions that are going to help all of us move together without feeling paralyzed by not having the solution to every challenge that is involved in this issue or in our spheres of influence.
JENNIFER BROWN: And you focus on questions rightly so, having the right questions. I think-
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yes.
JENNIFER BROWN: ... when I coach white male leaders in particular, it's not needing to have the answers or the competency or expertise. It is in sitting with the not knowing. It is in sharing the not knowing, the acknowledgement. We can't pretend that we... In fact, some of us know the least about this information that we really should know in order to lead. But the thing is we can begin with questions. And that's a powerful way to create trust, to enter a space. Questions mean we have to be humble. We have to show up and talk about the not knowing. And then we have to also, we get to talk about the identities we see and we don't see about each other and in ourselves.
I love that you say each person is their own best teacher. I often say I agree. We have the ingredients from which to teach, but the teaching is not having the answer. The teaching is actually asking the right questions and sharing the right stuff without knowing where it's going to go. But understanding that just showing up and being in the dialogue and utilizing, "Here's all that I'm bringing. And I don't even know how to use it at this point, but I know that it could have an impact." Then the question for us as teachers then is to guide, have that door that's opened a crack, to push it open a little more and say, "Well, here's all the things you can do to address the inequities in the systems and the environments around us."
Whether you're coming from that place of underrepresentation and marginalization or coming from that place of advantage, each one of us has a unique role to contribute to changing that. And I hope that that disarms. It de-weaponizes this topic and says, "Oh well, that's something I can do. That doesn't feel shameful or guilt-inducing or... It feels actually actionable and accessible to me."
CHRIS ALTIZER: Right. And it doesn't feel so massive.
JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, exactly.
CHRIS ALTIZER: ... that I can't make a difference. It doesn't feel so scary. And I love, Jennifer, how you do this in your work because I've had several opportunities to watch you do it. It doesn't make it so scary that I'm going to say... Because what happens? I have, it's going to start like a joke, three straight white guys walk into a DE&I session. Okay, right? Well, what happens?
Well, first of all, what's my first objective? Don't get hurt. Don't say anything stupid. Come in. Nod when everybody says I should nod, smile when I should smile. Try not to say anything that is going to make me look like something that I don't want to look like, whether I am that way or not, and get out of this. So talking, creating the environment. We talk about this as a safe yet brave space. And I know there's a lot of noise about using those words, but that is what it is. We're going to make it psychologically safe and we're going to make it possible for you to be brave so that you can take a step in that direction of, "What?" Yeah, but here's how. And that's, I think, Gloria can describe it more, but we try to make the book as actionable on a day-to-day basis as possible. We talk about intention setting, we talk about growth mindset, but we try to make it actionable.
JENNIFER BROWN: Excellent.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Yeah. And the big part of the action, unless we leap fog the obvious, it starts with the individual. We're not encouraging anyone under any circumstances to jump into a conversation once they read the book. That's not that kind of party. It's not a linear process, but it is a process that absolutely requires each individual to take time to reflect, to reflect and deal with their own thoughts, emotions, mindset and all. And then use that opportunity with lots of guidance that they can do on their own pace to decide how they want to engage in conversations with others, to get to the working with unearned advantage and then growing earned advantage. And it's a part that we find is very difficult, especially for leaders, but even for teachers, to acknowledge because we're all doers. All of us have been executives in different parts of our lives, but the being is more important than the doing. And being, sitting with our biases and our mindset at the top is what then we think gives us the courage to step into the exchange with others and to do it in a way that's productive.
JENNIFER BROWN: That's right. I love that. It's the building of the muscle as I often talk about, the journey. And I don't want... I think failure is instructive, but it can also be discouraging. So there's a really... I love what you're saying about not wanting people to burst forth without being ready. But the bias in our culture around doing, doing, doing, that bias, that action bias is very important to you. Watch out for when it comes to this work because I love that you say the being. And the being is uncomfortable, right? That's the part where it's squishy and self-reflective and, "Ooh." Maybe I don't like what I see, or maybe I have some regrets about how awake I've been to this or the role that I've played or the silence that I've maintained, or it can be a lot of things. And both in our own hearts but also in the world around us. We can be angry at others, we can feel there were a lot of missed opportunities and the way we grew up, the way we were raised. So many things.
But just to sit with that and not to beat ourselves up about it, but just sit with it as neither, I don't know, the good-bad binary. Again, I feel like we get trapped in this, "But why did this happen for me, not to me? And privilege happened and advantages happened for me. Why?" Because it would equip me now at this point in our dialogue about progress to go forward and invite others that perhaps share some of the advantages that I have. Invite them to look at those as enablers of the contribution that we're going to make it. But I spent most of my life, I think, hiding the advantages that I had in this work. It's so fascinating. So I feel like I have so much in common sometimes with the folks that I'm teaching because they want to avoid it. I get it, because it's been such a negative and yet it can be such a positive. So literally, brick by brick, book by book, we are trying to redefine this discussion. I love it.
Can you tell just a tiny bit, I know we're almost out of time, but the elephant, why the elephant? I know the elephant shows up in a lot of business metaphors, eating it one bite at a time. I know there's a bunch of other ones. But what did you mean about the elephant and the relationship between this and what you're trying to teach?
CHRIS ALTIZER: I love that question. Well, the first is the elephant in the room, and folks get that. As soon as I begin to describe this, they go, "Oh, you mean the elephant in the room? The thing we don't want to talk about."
JENNIFER BROWN: Right.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Yes, okay. And then the question is, "Well, why on God's green earth would you want to grow advantage?" Well, because there's two kinds. There's earned and unearned. And our goal here, and I love how you said that before, Jennifer, it's that yes, it's about shots on goal. It's about opportunities. And the more unearned I have, the more shots I get for earned. I can't give away what I've unearned, but through my deliberation, my reflection, and then my actions, I can create the opportunity to grow earned advantage for those with less. So that's the idea. It's the elephant in the room, oh wow. It's the-
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Unearned advantage is the elephant in the room.
CHRIS ALTIZER: It is, unearned advantage. And then the other piece is that there's an ancient proverb or story in Indian culture around six wise blind men and the elephant. And you're probably familiar, but each of them grab a part of the elephant and they go, "Oh, an elephant is like a snake." "Oh, the elephant is like a spear." "Oh, the elephant's like a whip," because they're each grabbing different body parts. Each of them are right. All of them are wrong. And that is another important framework for us around this whole conversation, is that whatever your experience is, hey, your lived experience is your lived experience. For me to deny that, is that's wrong. "Oh, well that didn't happen." How many times has Gloria heard that in her life? Or, "Well, that? No, that's never happened to me." All those kinds of... But you can't say it's not true because it did. It's true and incomplete. So part of grappling the elephant is coming to terms with all of these different truths whoever you are, wherever you're from, whatever your lived experiences are, to see the whole elephant.
JENNIFER BROWN: That's beautiful. I also think of the that we have so much more capacity. We only are touching that one part of this massive opportunity, this what if the elephant in the room were this giant enabler, this whatever. It's like an asset. It's like, but I only see the part of it and I have so much more capacity than I realize because I can only touch that part of it. But there's so much to me. I am the elephant. I'm the thing. And I don't want to imagine lots of hands on me. But that part of me, if you interact with part of me here, you see this part of me. When you interact with this part, you see this part of me. We are all multitudes. We contain multitudes, to quote, I think Walt Whitman. Beautiful, these facets of ourselves that are only perceived or not by people depending on the limitations of their lenses and seeing all of who we are.
So I think that's also... There's so many ways we could look at this, but I love all of it. I think that it's a very apt title and it's so eye-catching. And I do think, what if the elephant in the room were this wonderful opportunity? What do we want to do with that? How do we want to unleash the power of that so that we can create change?
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: It's a wonderful way to work that metaphor. And we have to say, Jennifer, that the many years of work that you've done embracing all forms of identity is consistent with where we're trying to go. It's color, it's gender, it's physical ability, it's sexual identity, it's national origin, it's whether you have clean water and air or not. It's like all of those things come together. And we think that is the beauty of setting these intentions, because most of us have more than one identity, even if some are more important to us than others, inform our perspective. And that's where we have a place to see each other and have empathy. Because the experience that I've had with any of one, two, three, or four of these identities can help me relate with some reflection and some guidance and some courage, help me relate to other people and meet them where they are too and see the value that they bring in getting us to a better place.
So it's joyful work. It's super hard. We all talked about this before, all of this.
JENNIFER BROWN: It's hard.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: It's super hard.
JENNIFER BROWN: It's hard.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: But it's super joyful to see people lean into the work, to get the ahas, to make fun of themselves when they share stories about how dumb they were or their blind spots. I certainly do a lot, and it helps us move forward without so much judgment.
JENNIFER BROWN: And without so much attachment. And the ego.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: No, it's not a great look when you do that.
JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, it's not. No, no, no. And it's not going to resonate with anybody, but particularly younger people. We talk a lot about the way they look at the world and at inclusiveness. And some of us have a lot of catching up to do perhaps because we've only been focusing on one part of the elephant and haven't really picked up our head and said, "Huh, there's many ways to look at this. And my viewpoint and interpretation is equally valuable, but I have a part to play in naming the elephant and making the elephant visible, all parts of the elephant visible to the world. What is my job in doing that, and what's my unique gift and angle to do that?" Because we all have to see ourselves in the work.
So well, this is just wonderful. Where can people find information on the book? On you two? Is there anything else you'd like to our audience to know about where to find you and follow you?
CHRIS ALTIZER: So it's wherever you-
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: I'm glad you asked.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Wherever you buy books. You'll find it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, bookshop.org that I think they might be out of stock. Our website, which is growingtheelephant.com, www.growingtheelephant.com.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Everything is there.
JENNIFER BROWN: Okay.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Yeah. There's resources there as well. You'll hear Gloria's melodious voice and my voice reading some of the reflections. So basically everything you need to know is on the website.
JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you. Thank you both. And I just wish you so much, so much luck. It's not just luck, right? You're really leading with your hearts and doing beautifully, you together, independently, both of your stories, your stories together of allyship. And we didn't have a lot of time to go into that. But I just want to say when I meet a pair like you two who've really come together and created this one plus one multiplier as you have, it's so... Even just that is so powerful, because we don't endeavor this work, I think, alone. Yes, it starts with us. But to have somebody we trust enough to write with and to have at least two parts of the elephant between the two of you, to use that to show that all of these things can be true. Like you said earlier, they are true. And we have the capacity to hold all of these together and many more, many, many more. So anyway, you both are an inspiration. Thank you. I hope to meet you in person someday.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: A big hug is in the making, I think.
JENNIFER BROWN: I think so. I think so, I think so. But anyway, I hope The Will to Change audience supports your book. Please everybody, consider these folks as speakers. Consider this book as a read for a book club. And really, this is where I think we need to apply a lot more a work and get our leaders in our world in particular more resources. And you just never know what's going to hit somebody and create that aha moment and wake that person up so that they can lead from wherever they start, from all the advantages, both earned and unearned, that they may carry, that they probably are not utilizing and don't know how to use, but that we certainly need them to use. So thank you both.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Thank you for all you do.
CHRIS ALTIZER: Thank you, Jennifer.
GLORIA JOHNSON-CUSACK: Thank you. It's been a joy.
JENNIFER BROWN: Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion, and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.
DOUG FORESTA: You've been listening to The Will to Change, Uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.
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