Unconscious Bias Meets Conscious Action- How Pipeline is Using Tech to Elevate Consciousness and Create Gender Equity

Jennifer Brown | | , ,

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Katica Roy, CEO and Founder of Pipeline Equity, joins the program to discuss her diversity story, including being the daughter of refugees who escaped from Hungary after the 1956 revolution. She reveals how her company’s software as a service (SaaS) technology uses AI to assess, address and take action against the unconscious gender biases costing the U.S. alone $2 trillion each year. Discover how technology can help leaders to make better decisions and operationalize their commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion.

In this episode you’ll discover:

  • Katica’s diversity story as the daughter of refugees (3:00)
  • How Pipeline’s technology helps leaders make better decisions (7:00)
  • Why personal change is not enough (12:00)
  • Why men need to be part of the conversation around gender equity (15:00)
  • Takeaways from the Google walkout (20:00)
  • The importance of transparency (26:00)
  • Concerning trends around retaliation in the workplace (30:00)
  • Why equity will be integral to the workplace of the future (32:00)
  • What employees expect from leaders (34:00)

Listen in now, or read on for the transcript of our conversation:

JENNIFER BROWN: Our guest today is Katica Roy. The daughter of an immigrant and a refugee who fled Hungary via Air Force One on Christmas Day, 1956, Katica shares that President Eisenhower’s use of his power for good to save her family and 21 other refugees left an indelible mark on her young self.

This point of origin would shape her personal and professional trajectory, and her belief that people in positions of power need to stand up and use that power to make a difference. As someone born in this country, she deeply feels her obligations and duties to give back.

She would indeed make that difference, and then some. After 20 years in the corporate world, Katica marshalled her expertise around economic inequality, people analytics, and sales operations to found Pipeline Equity, a platform dedicated to making gender equity achievable within organizations.

Pipeline increases financial performance through closing the gender equity gap. It uses AI to assess, address and action against the gender biases costing the U.S. alone $2 trillion each year. She likes to say that this issue is not just about good sense, but about dollars: big dollars that turn heads to create social change.

I was reminded in our conversation that gender parity would better serve not just organizations but individuals and households, lifting all of us into greater economic opportunity. This is again personal for her; Katica is deeply involved in championing the rights of refugees, women, and children, and is a board member of multiple organizations.

She sums it up this way: “Employees need to better understand their worth and continue to find ways to fulfill their roles, and organizations need to get smarter about the benefits of investing in their people in new, meaningful, consistent ways. My life’s work has focused on how people learn, engage, grow and prosper within organizations, and the data says support and desire need to be driven from both directions.”

We couldn’t have said it better. Katica, welcome to The Will to Change.

KATICA ROY: Thanks, Jennifer.

JENNIFER BROWN: I’m excited to have you here. We met through Erin Weed, who has a wonderful program for speakers out in Boulder. I saw you speak and I know you’ve been through her program and she’s actually been a guest on The Will to Change as well.

I was really interested to bring the company that you’ve created particularly to my audience so they know about what you do, why you do it, why you think it’s revolutionary, which I agree with.

We always start The Will to Change with our diversity stories. I was really floored by yours, as everybody’s is. But what would you share about that? And then maybe translate it into what animates your work today as somebody who’s created Pipeline Equity.

KATICA ROY: I am the daughter of an immigrant and a refugee. And that fundamentally shaped who I am and what I believe is possible both for people in positions of power standing up and using that power to make a difference, as well as the obligation and duty of someone born in this country to take that and give back.

I’ll tell the story of my father and sisters, who are the refugees. They escaped from Hungary after the fall of the 1956 revolution. They lived in a refugee camp in Austria for just under two months when President Eisenhower sent Air Force One to bring 21 Hungarian refugees to the U.S. on Christmas Day, 1956. They were part of the 21 Hungarian refugees.

When I talk about people in a position of power, my story is about the president of the United States, the most powerful man in the world, standing up and saying, “This will not happen on my watch. And I will make a difference.”

And for refugees, my family who had left everything behind in the hope that there would be a brighter future without a guarantee of a brighter future, because they had no idea what would happen, they escaped in the middle of the night, helped by Hungarian freedom fighters on a border that was patrolled by Soviet Tanks. This was a dangerous thing for them to do.

That belief that if you have power, you have a responsibility to use it for good. And during that time, it was a long time ago, it was over 62 years ago. It was tenuous, quite frankly, for President Eisenhower to do anything. We’re post World War Two, we’d had two world wars, and this decision to use his power for good was tremendous.

And I think one of the things that I have talked about in that story, one is President Eisenhower’s Presidential Library sent us all of the documentation about the mission and who was there and the photos, et cetera. Also, this visual of my father making the decision to risk his daughters’ lives in pursuit of freedom. And then less than two months later, watching them walk the stairs of Air Force One to freedom.

JENNIFER BROWN: Love that story.

KATICA ROY: For me, that is the core of why after over 20 years in the corporate world, I felt that it was an opportunity for me to use all of the skills that I had, all the opportunities I had been given and that I’d certainly worked very hard for, but also the fact that I’d been born in this country, because three of my siblings weren’t born in this country, to actually effect change in a way that truly does make gender equity possible in our lifetime, not just something which maybe might happen.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right. And you’ve built a tool. I want to cut to the chase because it’s a really exciting SaaS model technology that focuses on five key pillars. I often describe to my clients unconscious bias, conscious bias, occasionally, often, happens at all of these critical decision points for employees. Whether it’s the hiring process, the promotion and advancement process, performance reviews.

We’re getting smarter about all of these moments where we can correct for biased behavior and bring it to the forefront of our consciousness and make a different choice, right?

KATICA ROY: Correct.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s the whole concept of becoming aware of your biases and then what they matters is: Do you do something about them?


JENNIFER BROWN: Your tool actually uses tech and AI and other tools to elevate that to our consciousness, and then to hopefully compel different decisions.


JENNIFER BROWN: Because that’s, honestly, what’s keeping women and other minority and underrepresented talent back. So, this is your passion now. So, tell us about your tool. Like, who uses it? What does it accomplish? How do you believe it’s going to further our progress and accelerate our progress?

KATICA ROY: We call it a platform, for us, just because it is fairly comprehensive. Essentially, what we are doing is interrupting the decisions before they’re made. Before you decide who you’re going to hire or what their performance review looks like or who gets in the succession pipeline or who you’re going to promote or how you write their performance reviews, our platform uses artificial intelligence to intercept that decision and then make a recommendation that not only moves companies toward equity, but also realizes the economic case for gender equity. Fundamentally, gender equity is not only a social issue, it is, in fact, a massive economic opportunity.

Where we actually came from was we did research across 4,000 companies in 29 countries. What we found was that for every 10 percent increase in gender equity toward parity, toward 50/50, and there are four KPIs in that, there’s a 1-2 percent increase in revenue. So, as you know, it’s not only the right thing to do, it’s actually the smart thing to do.

If you’re a CEO, your job is to maximize shareholder value. This is a key level, particularly in the labor market that we’re in today, to actually move to maximize the economic footprint of your company.

One of the things that we do and that I completely agree that we need to be aware of our biases and then we need to take action, it’s the action that actually will move us forward.

In our platform, because it’s a recommendation engine, that is, you are getting a recommendation. It could be a slate of candidates, a debiased performance review calibrated, et cetera., you have to accept our recommendations. The way your brain works, it’s actually easier to accept than reject.

So, one of the things that we talk about is unconscious bias meet conscious action.

JENNIFER BROWN: I love it! That’s a slogan.

KATICA ROY: It’s on all of our business cards. It’s one of our taglines, yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: What kinds of differences do you see, because women are not a monolith, right?


JENNIFER BROWN: There are diverse women, there are women of color, there are LGBTQ women who are also women of color. We are wise to the fact that, often, white women get through the net, if anybody gets through the net.


JENNIFER BROWN: How do you manage for data specific to that? How have you accounted for that in your approach and in your guidance? It’s something that I think is so important for our clients to bifurcate the experience of different women. We all are facing different headwinds.

Like we often like to say, we can all have the goal of equality, but equity is the path. And equity means that we need to take a different approach for different groups.


JENNIFER BROWN: And that accounts for all kinds of women. We cannot treat the group as one size fits all.

KATICA ROY: Yes, and that’s actually historically been the issue in the gender equity movement, which is that it has not taken into account other diverse factors such as race and ethnicity, age, LGBTQ, et cetera. And when you don’t do that, what you don’t account for is that typically women who are also black women, Latinas, LGBTQ – they actually tend to be farther behind anytime you take gender plus another diverse class. You’re then not accounting for the additional boost, essentially, that they need to be at the same starting line.


KATICA ROY: One of the things that we talk about is that we’re “gender first,” not “gender only.” The reason why we started with gender is because women are 51 percent of the population, 47 percent of the labor base, and they touch almost every other type of diversity.

We look at it from a gender-first perspective, but we do take into account in our algorithms race and ethnicity as well as age. Right now, in HR data, those are really the two pieces that are in the HR data. As other pieces of data are available, we will take those into account to ensure that we are being equitable across all diverse classes.

The other thing that also happens is we tend to almost assume that people just fit into one diverse class – you’re a woman or you’re an African American or you’re LGBTQ. But you could be all of those things, right?

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right.

KATICA ROY: And you could be over the age of 45.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right.

KATICA ROY: We are not just one. We need to understand the interplay of that and then account for that. The other piece is that we have, historically, put it on diverse classes to make up for that. That’s a huge issue. I’m a woman. Why do I need to go to the affinity group for women? That doesn’t make any sense, right? Now, if I am more than one diverse class, now I have to go to more than one? That becomes a real issue when we should really be focused on a system that doesn’t value people equitably rather than the people who are not valued equitably.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right. I asked you your opinion about Lean In, the book and the movement. In hindsight, it’s really interesting to view it as so important, and yet with the context of what you just said, which is the system needs to change.

KATICA ROY: Correct.

JENNIFER BROWN: We can’t rely on the women to change. So, while I loved the message of Lean In, and it’s still so salient for so many of us, we need to come to the table differently, we need to negotiate differently, we need to ask for more, we need to really own our power, I think. But if you do that and the road doesn’t rise to meet you, you’re going to fall on your face.

KATICA ROY: That’s right.

JENNIFER BROWN: You’re going to burn some bridges because people on the other side are not ready to make room for you or not committed to making room for you or don’t even understand why they should make room for you. By the way, “Oh, I want a meritocracy.” Why are you telling me I have to hire women or more diverse talent here? I want to hire the best person for the job.

We have all these women having read the book, leaning in really hard saying, “I’m going to show up differently and challenge my own self outside of my own comfort zone and outside of my socialization, by the way, because this is the way we were all socialized.”

But we have a whole generation of predominately, perhaps, male decision-makers who don’t really understand the point of affinity groups. It strikes me that we’ve done a good job of educating one half of the puzzle.


JENNIFER BROWN: But the other half is not a partner in it. Also, the system needs to change and we all need to tackle the flaws in the system that systematically hold us back.

KATICA ROY: There is so much in there. I’m going to start with affinity groups and I’ll work back. Affinity groups, the original intention of them was because it was difficult to find people like us, women or African Americans, LGBTQ, et cetera, that we had to create groups in order to find each other. That’s because we were essentially underrepresented.


KATICA ROY: Meritocracies fundamentally do not exist. They fail women, they fail anyone who does not fit the criteria by which the meritocracy was created. What has been shown through research is that meritocracies were created for white men. If you didn’t emulate that, it was not a meritocracy. That’s why it fails everybody else who is not a white male.


KATICA ROY: That’s an important key piece. The other piece around gender equity is that we often talk about gender equity is that we often talk about gender equity as a synonym for women’s rights, but women are half the conversation. Men are the other half. If we want to move toward inclusion, toward representation, we need to start talking about the socialization and archetypes that boys are raised with, which then they become men and go into the workforce. Which is, this is what it means to be a man, this is the very narrow definition of who you can be. You need to be a provider, you need to not be vulnerable, you need to not show emotions. “Don’t cry” is a very common thing that even today little boys are told.

The other piece of that, and it’s why men account for 79 percent of all suicides in the United States. The other piece of that is that 48 percent of working dads would like to stay home with their kids. So, we have a critical mass of men who would like to play a different role. And the reason that they don’t is identity. Who am I going to be? This is not who I was taught to be. I’m taught to be a provider. And who am I going to connect with, right?

In my own state of Colorado, my husband is a stay-at-home dad. I know this number, there are 26,659 stay-at-home dads. (Laughter.)

JENNIFER BROWN: To put a fine point on it.

KATICA ROY: Right. Out of five million. So, he’s been home for 11 years. Who does he connect with? He is not going to go to the Mommy and Me groups. Our kids are older now, but when they were younger when they went to Gymboree, music class, or whatever, he was often not only the only dad in the room, but the only man in the room. So, who does he connect with? That sense of connection, belonging, and the belief that we can be authentically who we are, but also still have a place in this world, that we need to tackle not only for women, we also need to tackle it for men. That’s a key part of the conversation that is often left out of moving would gender equity.

JENNIFER BROWN: I couldn’t agree more. We’ve had a lot of men and masculinity experts on The Will to Change and are planning to have much more. I have that in mind all the time. The “man box,” as it’s called, is confining. It’s a straitjacket. It does not speak to the diversity amongst men in terms of their hopes and dreams and how they want to show up and how they want to engage with the professional world. They’re covering in the workplace, not as much, but they are covering to a great degree.

KATICA ROY: Correct.

JENNIFER BROWN: They cover different aspects of who they are and what they want. Actually, we do have a bunch in common that is shared human experience, which is that these workplaces that are not meritocracies, to your point, have really been such rigid places for us to find our purpose, to exercise our being of service in the world. Honestly, work is a service. It’s how we offer our gifts, our brains, our hearts hopefully. But work doesn’t feel that way for so many of us. It’s good to hear you talk about the inclusion of all in “inclusion.”

It’s interesting, when I talk about that, it does cause some strong feeling in my rooms occasionally.

KATICA ROY: I’m sure.

JENNIFER BROWN: From all sides, interestingly. I think that it’s got to be a two-way street, and the shift in mindset needs to happen for all of us. Particularly in the age of Me Too, Lean In did a research study some months ago that male leaders and colleagues are pulling back from those professionally intimate – let’s hope it’s professional intimacy – but those trusted, one-on-one relationships as mentors, sponsors, partners, champions for women. It’s perceived as a tougher time than ever to reach out to foster talent, to partner and back somebody up, to get to know them and what they want in their careers.

It can be viewed as an awkward relationship when particularly male colleagues reach out and do this proactively. And, yet, that’s what I talk about needing more. There is nothing that makes a difference more than somebody sharing their power with you. If we look at who has power, we know the numbers.

KATICA ROY: Yes. 95 percent of Fortune 500 CEOs are men. The majority of all leaders in the Fortune 500, 68 percent are men.

JENNIFER BROWN: We can’t do this alone.

KATICA ROY: There is no way to solve this with just women.

JENNIFER BROWN: We can’t do it alone, exactly. And, yet, there has been this chilling effect, I guess. I hope that it’s not shared more broadly, but I know what the research says. I am proactively saying, “Do not succumb to the narrative.”


JENNIFER BROWN: Do not succumb to fear. This time more than ever, you are needed to actually role-model healthy relationships. Could we have more of the healthy kind?


JENNIFER BROWN: Those don’t get a lot of press, of course, all the toxic relationships do.

KATICA ROY: Yes, of course.

JENNIFER BROWN: Just to segue and take a hard turn into forced arbitration. I would not want to let it go by, the opportunity to talk to you about finding our voice. I was fascinated by the Google walkout, 20,000 employees walked out. What month was that?

KATICA ROY: November 1st.

JENNIFER BROWN: It was last year, 2018. There was a crew that organized that walkout. It anybody wants to know more about it, Kara Swisher on Recode Decode did an incredible episode where she had the organizers on her podcast and asked them all about their terms. How did they organize it? What demands were answered by leadership at Google?

Tell us what’s happened since then. It’s disturbing.


JENNIFER BROWN: You’re a bit of a cynic about the direction things are going in general, about employees finding their voice, our want to have honest conversations about real issues of what’s getting in our way in terms of hostile work environments, et cetera, and why it’s one step forward, two steps back it seems.

KATICA ROY: Yes. One thing, I’m actually not a cynic. (Laughter.)


KATICA ROY: I am not. I would not have started Pipeline if I was a cynic.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s true. That’s true.

KATICA ROY: What I fundamentally believe is that we should ground ourselves in the research and the reality of what is the current situation, whether it’s at Google or more broadly. We should ground ourselves in that, and then we should take action.

I am very much someone who is both grounded in the data and is hopeful. It is the cornerstone of who I am because of who my parents are.

JENNIFER BROWN: For sure. Yes.

KATICA ROY: And I would not be sitting here with you today unless somebody had done that.

JENNIFER BROWN: Hope springs eternal!

KATICA ROY: I am not a cynic. What I believe is that we should go the heart of what is the issue, address that, and then we will solve it.

With Google in particular, which has gotten the most press, they had five demands. To my knowledge, two have been met and there are a few more just in the last week that they made some changes.

One of them was removing binding arbitration, which Microsoft was the first large company to do that, followed by Google and then Facebook. Five months before Anita Hill actually testified – the two are not connected outside of time – but before Anita Hill testified on Capitol Hill, the United States Supreme Court decided a case which essentially tipped the scales of justice away from employees. What it said, essentially, was that employers could use binding arbitration in employment agreements under the Federal Arbitration Agreement.

The original intent of the Federal Arbitration Act, the FAA, in 1925 was to unclog the courts from commercial disputes. So, two legal entities or companies having a dispute should not settle it in court, instead, they would do it by arbitration. They were somewhat co-equal because they were two commercial entities.

When that happened, the next year, 2 percent of employees in the United States were covered by binding arbitration. In 2014, 40 percent of workers – 60 million workers – were covered by binding arbitration.

There are a few issues with binding arbitration. We could do an entire show on it. One is that it essentially strips employees of their 7th Amendment rights, which is the right to a public trial. It also stands in the way of labor laws that were designed to protect employees. The Civil Rights Act of 1965, which created the EEOC under Title 7, the Equal Pay Act of 1963, the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009 – essentially, it took those rights away.

More recently, last year a case was decided which essentially barred employees from banding together. And one of the cases was an allegation of not paying for $1800 of overtime. The legal costs associated with that would be $200,000. So, anyone who is not paid $1800 worth of overtime is unlikely to go seek out an attorney for $200,000.


KATICA ROY: One of the things, for instance, that Gretchen Carlson talks about, along with Susan Fowler, in trying to really change this is since 1991, it may have not really gotten any better, we just didn’t know that it didn’t get better.

JENNIFER BROWN: Because it’s buried.

KATICA ROY: Yes. And because arbitrators don’t necessarily need to follow the law. It is not a requirement. And because companies are the ones who have more arbitration and are more likely to use the same arbitrator, the other thing that they’ve seen through a pattern is that the more often a company uses the same arbitrator, the higher win rate they have.


KATICA ROY: You have all these inequities in the system. At the same time, you have what’s often been called the “pink ghetto.” This is the migration of women away from more powerful roles, P&L roles. This is part of the issue around the 5 percent of women in the Fortune 500. They’re moving toward more female-dominated roles like human resources, nursing, or executive assistants. Whether those two are related, I can’t tell you. I know that they’re happening at the same time.

Part of this movement, and Google was a big part of this, was essentially the way we make things better is by making them transparent. For all the talk about the regulation of social media, which I believe there is something that needs to happen, the thing that has actually not been talked about as much is the fact that Me Too was only possible because of social media. The ability for millions of people to connect within a 24-hour period was made possible by these tools. There is good in those platforms.

When we’re thinking about regulation, we need to think about the voices that have been heard that would not have been heard in 1991 because there was not a technological avenue in which those voices could be raised.

We need to really think about the world we live in and how we make it better.

JENNIFER BROWN: And how has this all played out at Google for the organizers. I was concerned about them immediately when I read about this. I thought, “This is really risky for them to take this kind of action.” Good for them, and good for Googlers for using their time. There is another walkout planned tomorrow.

KATICA ROY: Tomorrow.

JENNIFER BROWN: This is an evolving situation. What’s your prediction about which way this is going to? What is the lesson we should take as organizers within companies where employees are concerned that there is systematic sweeping under the rug of issues and challenges, particularly as they pertain to the most vulnerable employees?

KATICA ROY: When you’re talking about the most vulnerable employees, you’re typically not talking about Google employees.

JENNIFER BROWN: That is very true.

KATICA ROY: You’re talking about minimum wage.


KATICA ROY: Hourly workers.

JENNIFER BROWN: Manufacturing.

KATICA ROY: Manufacturing. You’re talking about restaurant employees. You’re talking about employees who disproportionately not only are women, but are African Americans or Latinas. That is a key piece.

JENNIFER BROWN: We need to make that point clear. Yes.

KATICA ROY: That needs to be talked about.

Going back to Google, a couple of things. One is that what has so far been reported is it’s not only the organizers, and it’s two of the organizers that are alleging retaliation. It’s also 300 additional of the 20,000 that walked out.

What’s interesting is that if you look at the EEOC cases over the last 20 years or so, there actually has been a move toward cases of retaliation versus discrimination. I think it’s a 50-percent increase over that time. You’ve actually seen that begin to happen.

What is, perhaps, the untold story about Google was the bravery of the employees who stood up, the people who organized it, as well as the 20,000 who walked out who are, ultimately, committed to Google and to making it better. They don’t want to leave Google, that’s the whole point. They want to make it better. That’s their goal in doing this.

The other piece of it is Google, obviously, has gotten the most press. There are others – Nike, Amazon, Disney, Wells Fargo, Under Armour – there are a number that have been in the news.

What’s interesting about Google is this: Google was really the company that pioneered the workplace of today. If you were to go back and look in the late ’90s, Google was really, at that point, pioneering the workplace of the future when you were looking at it in the late ’90s.

What is interesting is that this is an opportunity for Google to pioneer the next workplace of the future. They have a very big presence. It is an opportunity to use this to stand forward.

We also have seen other tech CEOs, Marc Benioff is probably the most well known at Salesforce. My experience is that Chuck Robbins at Cisco and Satya Nadella at Microsoft are also two who don’t get as much credit.


KATICA ROY: They have also stood forward very much on equity. It’s an opportunity for all CEOs, particularly those who are more public, we’re in New York right now, the seven banking CEOs a few weeks ago being asked about who was going to be their successor and none of them raising their hand. It is an opportunity for these CEOs to stand forward on this issue.

And what’s interesting is what the research says. Edelman’s Trust Barometer that came out this year is that employees expect CEOs to stand forward on these issues. The number-one issue that employees, by far, expect employers and CEOs to stand forward on is equal pay.

We need to pay attention to that. The other thing when we go back to those five pillars that we have found is that if you want to close the gender pay gap, you cannot start with pay. You need to start with performance and equity of opportunity, which was, by the way, the second demand that the Google workers made, which was, “We want equity in pay and opportunity, and we want it to be transparent.”

JENNIFER BROWN: Fabulous. I believe that your platform is going to play a really critical role in helping achieve this in a concrete way. And it’s just the right thing at the right time for people to make different decisions and to learn about their biases and also to shift the opportunity towards equity versus just the overarching goal of equality, which is all fine and good, but an actual concrete tool like yours – along with others like Textio – that sniff out bias in all these core processes of companies mean that we can lean on technology and not just asking the most marginalized to do all the changing. I really appreciate what you’ve built.

KATICA ROY: CEOs, largely, my experience is that they are committed to equity. What they struggle with is how to operationalize that commitment.


KATICA ROY: Which is exactly what Pipeline does. Just to put it in the context of a company like Google. Google has 80,000 employees. In our context, there are three key decisions you make across your employees every year, typically, which is performance, potential, and pay. For Google, that’s 240,000 opportunities to move toward equity every single year.

JENNIFER BROWN: That puts a fine point on it. Katica, thank you for joining us on The Will to Change. I think you’ve given us some great data and grounded us in the business case, which we always need to have that discipline and that understanding. You’ve given us historical perspective, too, and taught me a bunch about the history of arbitration. It’s really interesting.

We’ll watch the Google situation. I recommend our listeners keep tabs on this. Like you said, they do have an opportunity to build the future of the workplace. That workplace is going to be characterized by transparency and treating employees as partners in the journey. Also, executive action putting these values into play in a public way and signing up for that accountability. All eyes are going to be on these companies, particularly companies like Google, to do the right thing. You and I desperately hope that they do the right thing and that they set the bar high for other employers to make these same decisions.

How can our audience track your work or pay attention to what you want them to be reading? How can we follow your product development, your journey, et cetera?

KATICA ROY: Sure. One thing I want to add. I would say it’s not “if,” it’s “when.” It depends who goes first.


KATICA ROY: We’ve seen that trend in terms of CEOs. The way that people can track us is PipelineEquity.com. I have a blog on there called Katica’s Voice. We also have Pipeline’s blog, which is Voices for Equity. And then I send out a weekly newsletter called Brave Souls.

JENNIFER BROWN: Beautiful. What are your social handles?

KATICA ROY: @KaticaRoy.

JENNIFER BROWN: Love it. Thank you, Katica.

KATICA ROY: Thank you.


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