Tuning in to Autistic Voices at Work: With JBC's Adrienne Lawrence and Clinical Psychologist Julissa Garcia

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Julissa Garcia:

It's a sense of confusion. It's also like what you said, since we see things with greater detail, we ask so many questions that I think, on the back end, a manager's going to try to figure out how can they not get this first time around? "Why are they asking so many questions? This is such a typical thing. They've done this before. Joe over there in the corner will get this instantly." And so I've seen a lot of people confused as to why their managers at time pulls a project from them or is always so upset as to they're asking so many questions and they're like, "I just want to be able to do this correctly." So I ask the questions and it puts off a lot of managers and it's always that, "Well, you are asking too many questions. I don't want to deal with you. Let me just give it to so-and-so because they can get it done a little bit faster." But then it doesn't get done right because they're looking at the bigger picture where I want the little detail. So we can do it just once.

Doug Foresta:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, best-selling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advised top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now onto the episode.

Hello and welcome back to the World of Change. This is Doug Foresta. Today's episode was originally recorded as a community call and features a conversation between JBC Vice President Adrienne Lawrence and clinical psychologist Julissa Garcia as they discuss autism acceptance month and how critical it is to listen to autistic voices as we seek deeper understanding about their experiences in the workplace. And Jennifer and Julissa talk about topics including how to develop a deeper understanding and appreciation for the lived experiences of neurodivergent professionals, how to establish inclusive environments that accommodate and celebrate neurodivergent in individuals regardless of their specific diagnosis or condition. And how to recognize and value the unique talents and achievements of autistic individuals. All this and more. And now onto the conversation.

Adrienne Lawrence:

My name is Adrienne Lawrence. I'm a vice president at Jennifer Brown Consulting and I am honored to be joined by Julissa Garcia. She's a clinical psychologist focusing on women with in areas of ASD, Autism Spectrum Disorder, and other different kind of neurodivergent differences. And both myself and Julissa also happened to be women on the autism spectrum. And so we're very proud and honored to come together to have this conversation today in large part because there is a lot of misunderstandings and people don't necessarily understand what fully goes in with ASD, but also how to create those inclusive workspaces so that people can grow and also contribute, especially given that, as we will explain, people with ASD tend to think differently, which is extraordinarily valuable in our society, especially if you're looking for innovation and growth. Thanks so much for joining us, Julissa.

Julissa Garcia:

Thank you for having me, Adrienne. It's a pleasure being here with you.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yes. All right. And also as a disclaimer to most people out there, Julissa and I have known each other for some 20 years. We worked together at the US Attorney's Office in the Southern District of New York several decades ago it seems. But yes, and both at that time, both of us had no idea we were on the autism spectrum. We just figured we were very direct, also highly analytical and able to pick up and identify various traits and things that really helped in our career success, but at the same time could make interpersonal communications and interactions difficult. And so now as Julissa is in route with her PhD specializing in that area, Julissa, what do you think is the most misunderstood thing as it concerns autism spectrum disorder?

Julissa Garcia:

I think the first thing you stated was right on spot is one of those communication issues where we do tend to be quote unquote "more direct" versus other people. And I think the misunderstanding is that we are seen as rude or combative or put off and to some managers at times could be insubordination if you want to use that word. And there's a fine line that we at times have to try to work through and managers have to understand between that difference of being direct and insubordinate.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yes, absolutely. I found that being a native of California when I moved out to New York, I found that I fit in very well. Because I think the nature of the communication style tends to be very direct. And so the vast majority of the closest friends I have, including you, are individuals who are New Yorkers, but that's also a cultural thing that sits with New York as well. But that's not necessarily the case for other places in the country.

Julissa Garcia:

Correct.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And also can be very different depending on the type of workforce you're in. For example, when I worked with a major law firm, being direct clear to the point, not necessarily throwing in those extra fluffy niceties, thank you so much and good morning for the day as opposed to getting straight to it was highly valued because we are billing at $500-$1000 an hour.

You got to the point you moved on because that was the nature of the business and job. So the interpersonal and communications were very easy for me because I didn't need to add all that additional fluff so to speak. But when it comes to environments where that's more the expectation or cultures or geographic regions where that extra fluff and saying things in very indirect ways can be the expectation. It could mean that individuals such as you and I are out of the workforce or don't have those options because as you mentioned, the thought that people are rude or that there's something short about them.

Julissa Garcia:

That's something I see a lot now in the field that I'm in. And this is a strength that I found in myself being able to be so diverse where I do have those moments, especially when I'm seeing a client being able to be direct. And I think that's really greatly appreciated. But also I think the thing that a ton of people miss is that we are not able to empathetically communicate our feelings in that respect. So when I sit with a client is where that part of me actually really works well because they do appreciate the direction directness where I'm like, "No, that's not acceptable behavior in any respect." But I can also lean back and say, "Well, this is how it should be done." And I think that throws people off, especially when the stigma and the stereotype with the directness of someone living with ASD or having ASD is that they don't understand that part of life, that directness and being able to still be soft but getting to the point. And that's where a lot of people... There's a sense of sense indirectness and confusion.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Or the disconnect is there. Exactly. And the thing is when we talk about inclusivity in various spaces, that's something that is important for practitioners and also other people to take into account that the moment you interact with someone and you think, "Oh well that person is off-putting, or oh, that person is mean or rude," to step back and to say to yourself, "Hey, this person may have a neurological difference. This person..." Also, as we always say, you never know what someone's going through, but to create room to let that person ultimately define themselves for themselves, but also to do more of that introspective work and ask yourself, "Why did I feel I needed that person to ask me how my day was as opposed to simply to provide that information to me? And am I holding them to certain behavioral standards that aren't necessarily aligned with the objectives of the nature of our relationship?"

And that's something that I often encounter when I talk to various organizations and leaders about inclusivity, that it's not simply hire the black guy or make sure there are enough women in place or make sure you have enough age range. No, it's also making room for neurological differences. And so Julissa, I know you have had quite a career path just as I have in different areas and in terms of that journey, can you speak to the experience or maybe a notable experience that you've had that you found that when the recipient or when the person you were dealing with had more leeway and more room to get to know you as opposed to coming to conclusions that you didn't fit their behavioral standards, how that helped you grow and continue to want to be a part of the organization?

Julissa Garcia:

That's a big one. Like you said, we met over 20 years ago, so my big bulk of my career was spent in the federal government. And I think that's where it was mostly accepted in the most weirdest way, only because it was those direct shooters. I was in that environment where I was accepted for my directness, for my "let's go get them" attitude and "let's get the work done." The pleasantries I can do, but if I'm there to do a job, please no one take offense if I just come in and get the job done.

They gave me that room, they understood it. I don't think they understood it was because I was divergent at the time, but I was still given the space to grow. And the more I learned that my directness in some respects and some careers helped my situation, I learned to lean into it more. As I changed careers, it was more in education and that's where it was a little bit more of a pushback. Pleasantries are expected in education, they're not very inclusive of their employees being as diverse as the students that you're teaching. I taught a lot of children on the spectrum and I found my people. And so that was more me of letting what I call my mask down and it was more freeing and it was looked at differently, I have to say, that was a change of pace for me.

Adrienne Lawrence:

I would imagine. I can't quite recall, I know we were at the US Attorney's office together, but were you also at the FBI?

Julissa Garcia:

Worked with them jointly during the 9/11. So I was in a joint task force for several years after I left the government. That was the last five years.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And I'm guessing that environment was also very welcoming to, "We're here to get the job done"?

Julissa Garcia:

Yeah, pleasantries were okay, but that cup of Joe was like, "Let's go, sit down and work." And some people appreciate that in the workforce. A lot of organizations thrive on that type of employees. "Let's get the job done, let's get it going." A lot of organizations are the family oriented where, "Hey, how was your day? How was your week? Sit down, have a cup." And you're like, "No, not really. I like you, but I just really need to get this job done." And that's the change and shift when you go from very, "Let's go get the job done," to an educational environment where it's like, "How was your weekend?" "It was good. Can I teach?"

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yeah. I think it's quite interesting the way the neurodivergent brain works in terms of being focused on a particular goal where it's, "I'm here to do my job, so I'm going to focus on my job." But then also when you bring in the intersectional aspects of like you yourself are Afro-Latina, I am black. And the thought that the more I let my guard down, the more I share with people my life, the more I could be subject to scrutiny, the more I could potentially be thought ill of, or the thought that maybe she does not fit in because she spent the weekend playing basketball as opposed to tennis. And so as a result of that, as a woman who is an artist as well, it makes me even less inclined to necessarily engage about things that I do in my personal time. And so having to navigate that intersectional arena could mean for the employer or supervisors or whatnot to essentially only be able to access the work-related part of a person's life.

And so also when I end up speaking a lot to organizations, I remind them that you want to create a workplace where someone could feel comfortable sharing with you what they did on the weekend or maybe what's going on in their life that's maybe even causing room for concern. But if they do not share it with you, do not hold that against them or do not pressure them. It's just a matter of inclusivity requires keeping that space so that they feel comfortable doing it and that they feel they have the choice. I sometimes think it can be very difficult navigating that terrain. And what would you say, especially from, I told you you wouldn't have to talk anything technical as a psychologist here, but as someone in this space where we're dealing with psychology, what would you say is the biggest difficulty for neurotypical people as in people who are not neurodiverse, what would you say is the most difficult thing for them when they encounter someone like us?

Julissa Garcia:

Is the idea of what they think someone on the spectrum is. It's the word. It's a spectrum. When I first started telling people that I was on the spectrum that I told one, a friend who was over had a friend over 20 years, and he's like, "Oh, really? Are you sure? I don't think you're on the spectrum." I'm like, "Oh." Was it a compliment? Was it a backhanded... That I did understand, it's that it's the expectation of what they're expecting you to be and how you're supposed to represent in an organization. And it's true, I am an African Latina, and so they've never met someone who is in a career path of this nature who's Afro-Latina, who's a neurodivergent.

I'm on the autism spectrum and I have ADHD, I'm the full-blown little package here. So they don't know what to do with me. So the intersectionality is a heavy duty thing for me because I don't fit the mold that anyone has and it's very hard to go into organization who now has to deal... Okay, let me take the word back, not deal, has to understand me as an employee, has to understand me as a Afro-Latina and then has to understand me with everything else that I come along with. It's a lot of education on both ends from the organization and from the person to interact.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Absolutely. And I find that a lot of people, because they don't understand and they get a lot of their knowledge from what they've seen in Hollywood and media, which has been extremely narrow and limited, that they will say, "No, that's not what it is." Because the definition that they've created in their mind are based on shows that they've seen. And as I explained to people, ASD is simply a difference in communication and processing. And as I also maintain, it can be a disability. It depends whether it limits areas of your life and limits them significantly. But there are very much cases where it's not a disability. I do not consider myself disabled. I do not think Elon Musk considers himself disabled or Einstein did or John Nash or any of the other individuals who have contributed to our society significantly simply because their brains work differently, considered themselves disabled.

It's one of those things where it seems that a lot of society, or at least the medical field has just thrown us all in one bunch and says, "You're on the spectrum." When as many people in our community find that it does a disservice because there are individuals who do have heightened levels of disability who are considerably limited. And then when you see there are individuals like me, Julissa, Chris Rock, Elon Musk, Jerry Seinfeld, Daryl Hannah, and the rest of us absolutely thriving, then you think, "Oh, either it's not that big a deal or maybe this is not what this group of people is." And it really does a disservice as opposed to maybe the medical field doing more knowledge and listening and understanding more and recognizing that it may be a spectrum because that's easier for you to classify it. But the reality is that we're all simply different types.

Julissa Garcia:

I have to bring up, Jessica posted something really quick on the chat here with regards to women now being outnumbered, males three to four, and if I can bet on that research, I will have to tell you the number of women that are undiagnosed at the age of 18 and above is extremely high. Extremely, extremely high. And it's unfortunate. I just diagnosed a young lady who's happens to be African-American and she's 26, and it was a shock. It was an extreme shock to her to try to now understand her life and figure out her life. And as a clinician, and as someone who's on the autism spectrum, it's also disheartening to know that we as women are not being seriously taken when we come in.

And I would have to tell you, I'm going to speak on the clinical side of it. Women, when they go into a therapist or clinician psychoanalyst, however you want to define them, I would say maybe three out of four times get diagnosed with depression, anxiety, OCD, anything other than a neurodivergence because we do not present it in a manner that a typical male presents it. And it's disheartening when your whole life, you're wondering what is different. And then at 26 you're like, "Oh, that's different." Or at my age, I won't disclose my age, but it was only maybe five years ago. And where I'm like, "Oh, ah." The aha moment, hey, you're like, "Okay, that's where it is."

And my field, when I say my field, I mean the mental health field is doing an extreme disservice to a ton of people who aren't being diagnosed because of the way the spectrum is looked at and the way the spectrum is defined. And it goes to show how a lot of organizations do need to understand the difference and what a spectrum is and how to manage and speak to those people on the spectrum or understand that I don't see the big picture yet, but I see every little small detail that will make the big picture and solve it. This is why I'm doing what I do. I love looking at little pieces and putting it all together.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And that's also one of the interesting things, or at least I find it be interesting, but also being on the spectrum, I information dump. So the way I define it is I'm just a little computer with dimples. And what a lot of people don't fully appreciate is that when you're neurotypical, your mind works with the big picture.

Julissa Garcia:

Correct.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And you'll go and look at details if you want them.

Julissa Garcia:

Correct.

Adrienne Lawrence:

For people like us, we don't take the big picture. We need to start with the details.

Julissa Garcia:

Yes.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Which is why we ask a lot of questions, which is why we have considerable information in our heads because we start from the details and work to the big pictures. So it's two different funnels and they're simply going different directions. And that's incredibly powerful for you if you are an employer because why would you want everyone who sees the funnel this way as opposed to having a few people who see it this way? Because also as we've seen, and again not to brag, but I think bragging rights are deserved. It's been the individuals on the spectrum who have been the ones to develop the vast majority of things we have, especially in science and growth and moving forward simply because we think differently.

And so when you're able to harness that for your organization, you are going to be far more innovative. But it's a matter of getting past biases and thinking, "Oh gosh, that person's on the spectrum. I don't want to deal with that because the movies I've seen have been Rain Man or the Good Doctor." And what really needs to happen is letting people again, define themselves for themselves, knowing that again, it's a spectrum so you have no idea what someone's level of need is or also what their strengths are. So keeping those things in mind and really inviting people in is incredibly important. And also another information dump, which I find to be rather fascinating. So if you've paid attention at all to tech and Elon Musk, as we know, I think he's on his 10th child, which he's doing a fair number through surrogacy, and there's a reason for that because he and a lot of the tech bros feel like there aren't enough people in our society who are smart, talented or whatever. And so they're looking to populate.

It's not good because it's kind of eugenics. But at the same time, the interesting part of that is that in their seeking to have a bunch of children through IVF, one of the things they're not controlling for is autism.

Julissa Garcia:

Correct.

Adrienne Lawrence:

[inaudible 00:22:51] Recognized and how the brain works differently and how that can be extraordinarily beneficial when you're in a society where everyone is thinking like this and you have those few people who think like this. And so it just really speaks to the value in having someone of a different mindset and simply because their behaviors may appear different, it does not in any way mean that you should not work with them or not welcome them. If anything, it's a package deal just like every other employee. And so it's one of those things where people have to get past their biases of this person doesn't conform to my thoughts and behavior standards. And Julissa, I guess on the receiving end of that, in terms of counseling people who are on the spectrum, what have you seen in terms of people who haven't felt welcomed in their workplace or in their environment or embraced?

Julissa Garcia:

It's just some of confusion. It's also, it's like what you said, since we see things with greater detail, we ask so many questions that I think on the back end of on managers going to try to figure out, "How can they not get this first time around? Why are they asking so many questions? This is such a typical thing. They've done this before, Joe over there in the corner will get this instantly." And so I've seen a lot of people confused as to why their managers at time pulls a project from them or is always so upset as to they're asking so many questions and they're like, "I just want to be able to do this correctly, so I ask the questions." And it puts off a lot of managers and it's always that, "Well, you are asking so many questions. I don't want to deal with you. Let me just give it to so-and-so because they can get it done a little bit faster." But then it doesn't get done right because they're looking at the bigger picture where I want the little details so we can do it just once and do it, right.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yep. And I find that there's also things that we are thinking of that other people aren't.

Julissa Garcia:

Correct.

Adrienne Lawrence:

We may ask a lot of questions because we're trying to figure out what is your actual objective here? And then I could explain to you, "Oh, well if you do that then this." And oftentimes I've had managers say, "Oh my goodness, I never thought of that." But by virtue of the fact that I thought of it. Or also if they say, "Oh, the goal is X," then I'd say, "Well, why don't we just do this?" And then generally have the manager say, "Oh, I never thought of that." And so I often think that it's best with managers if you're working with someone who is an autist, to actually, when they start asking a lot of questions to maybe ask them, "What is your concern? Or is there something you are concerned about or you see that you think I'm not seeing?"

Julissa Garcia:

Perfect.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Because then you can get through because otherwise, I think generally we just ask a lot of questions.

Julissa Garcia:

We'll be there for hours, asking questions, engage us. And that's the one thing we're not afraid to be asked questions. I enjoy questions. Please do. Because then I will think through it also. And then at that point it's a quick brainstorm. I think the idea of we brainstorm on the spot, we don't need a five-minute meeting, we don't need a 10, 15 minute meeting, we don't need a whole team meeting. I can brainstorm with a manager on the spot, get the answers that I need and walk away and get it done. I don't need a 30-minute meeting. I don't need back and forth email, please. And there goes a directness.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yep. Just get it.

Julissa Garcia:

"Can we just hash it out real quick? I'll ask. You ask. We answer. You answer. Thank you. I'll go get it done."

Adrienne Lawrence:

And that's why I think it's also important for a lot of leaders to have inclusive leadership skills so that they can be more patient. And the thing is, I tell people, "You may be good at your job, but that does not mean you are a good manager." I don't manage people and I don't do-

Julissa Garcia:

I don't either.

Adrienne Lawrence:

That for a reason. I do not do it for a reason. I know who I am, I am great at my job, but I'm not looking to manage people because of the personality differences and the fact that directness does not go very far when people need to be coddled. But at the same time, there are people with those skills and they are phenomenal at them, and I love watching them work and be able to work people. And so in taking that assessment with employers and ensuring that the right people are in their right job and they're fit for it, and also that they have the bandwidth for it. Because again, being a manager, I watch-

Julissa Garcia:

God bless them.

Adrienne Lawrence:

It's like it's a kindergarten sometimes where I'm sitting here thinking, were you not breastfed long enough? Why do I need to give you all of this? Can't I just tell you what to do and what is wrong?

Julissa Garcia:

When I worked in the US attorney's office, I literally had to walk away from managerial job because I was like, "I can't. You come at me with a problem. I need you to come up with at least with three solutions and then we can work through it." Then again, the directness where I'm like, "Oh no, I can't. I love you guys. So because I do, I will step away because I'm not a coddler. I'm too direct." And I know my strength and weaknesses and I think that's something, and I'm not sure if it's because I have to take a hardcore look at myself and know that I can manage like a lot of people on the call and God bless you guys because I am one where you have a problem. You have to come up to me with three solutions that you've already tried so that then we can move on. But on the neurodivergent side, I'm like, "Let's bring... Let's go. You have to think." And we're moving fast. We're moving fast always. I am always moving fast.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Yeah, thank you.

Julissa Garcia:

I need a team like that.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Exactly. And so knowing what your needs are and knowing really what works for you is incredibly important, but also giving space and bandwidth to different people out there. And just to give you all kind of a view, because we did mention essentially ADHD, which that's my comorbidity as well. And [inaudible 00:29:02] I believe it's 70% of people who are autistic-

Julissa Garcia:

On the spectrum.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Also have ADHD. But these are some of the overlaps of them. In terms of these aren't necessarily all positive, but they can make you extremely, extremely valuable to your workplace. It's just a matter of ensuring that we're creating environments where people are able to harness their strengths. For example, I have the laser focus, special interest, also taking in a lot of information, holding it and being able to provide it out and also masking and mimicking, being able to mimic other behaviors.

I can mimic my mother extremely well, so I can walk into spaces and generally adapt and take on different behaviors or skillsets as other people. There's kind of a reason why I guess with Stan Lee and the X-Men, which Large is kind of I guess rooted in the autist world, the thought is that we all have superpowers. It's a matter of being able to harness them and to use them for the benefit of your employer. It's a matter of the employer being able to create the space that's necessary so that you can continue to excel. And so let's hop on some of these questions that have come through. And again, if you have any questions you'd like to contribute, please feel free to put them in the chat. You can also email us at info@JenniferBrownConsulting.com.

One question I'd noted, gender affects us a lot too. I'm guessing this is about the diagnosis. I believe Julissa had noted that it seems women don't have as much wiggle room for neurodiversity as men. Absolutely. I would say that's in part because our society has these more stringent expectations of women when it comes to behavior and especially in terms of being nice, being caring and being loving. And so when we are very direct, to the point, very business oriented, cogent, candid, however you want to say, it is considered breaking from gender norms and thus we can be punished for it.

And it also can be very difficult as well, because it's a thought that generally women aren't supposed to challenge men, we autists will challenge because I would say for the most part, the thought is that you don't play by rules that are illogical and gender hierarchies, norms, that kind of thought is illogical, racial hierarchy norms, very illogical. That doesn't necessarily mean that we won't reinforce those things that are adverse to our society, but at the same time, operating largely on logic leaves little room for the nonsense. And so the [inaudible 00:31:51]. "Oh, how was your day? How was the weather?" The small talk, it generally doesn't work very well for us. As I say to people, I don't do small talk. If we are going to engage, I'm coming for your soul. I want to know what moves you. And so that level of depth can make people uncomfortable.

Julissa Garcia:

It's level of depth and level of reflection, when you come at someone that directly like, "Oh my God." And as a woman coming very direct, it's something that people are not used to.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And it can be very difficult to fit in spaces. And when we are on the receiving end of considerable rejection over the course of our lives because of our differences, it can also make us more reluctant to engage. And so again, it's about creating inclusive spaces where people feel comfortable in being themselves, but if they do not open up to you, they should not be penalized or punished. Another question, do you have any recommendations on how to find a professional to identify autism in women? I identify with so many things you are describing, and I've always wondered why I think differently than others. I've always wondered what was so different about myself, and I've never found an answer. The hosts are literally describing my thought process and approach right now. Julissa?

Julissa Garcia:

That is one of the things I am currently working on. Most of the diagnostic tools aren't meant to diagnose anyone on the spectrum at a very younger age. When it comes to diagnosing individuals that are older, it is more sort of question and answer and feel, and the understanding of what a neuro diverges someone on ASD is. I can look for stuff. I would need to know their location so I can get some information and possibly... It's usually new role psychologists or psychologists, but if I get their location, I can get information on that.

Adrienne Lawrence:

I can also tell you though, because again, info dumping and having done considerable research on it, so because of how our healthcare system is structured in the United States, capitalism is king. And also because certain states have laws on the books that say if someone is diagnosed with autism, their healthcare provider must provide them with X, Y, and Z care. There are doctors who will kind of avoid giving you the diagnosis also because they don't necessarily want it to be used against you at any point in the future. I got a lot of heat for wanting my diagnosis, in part because as a logical member of society, I think it's important to show the diversity, the difference, the range. And also it's like, "Are you going to tell me I am disabled and can't handle things when I take and pass bar exams without studying?" It's like, "If you're going to tell Elon Musk that, then tell me that." Even though he is special in his own regard.

But I would say that the vast majority of the research that is real and authentic, especially about women with ASD comes out of the UK because they have universal health plan. So if you want to get more knowledge about that, you can also email me and I actually have a packet put together because when I came out, so many of my friends had also had similar experiences. So if you email info@jenniferbrownconsulting.com and simply ask for Adrienne's resources, I can send it to you. But with the behavioral patterns, with the experiences women have, again, it's research out of the UK that I have found to be strongest, more robust, especially for women.

Julissa Garcia:

I have to add, I plan to change that.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Oh, you plan... Yes. And thank you for your contribution in that, because again, a lot of people are now, especially as we're seeing rise in TikTok and conversations, a lot of people are now getting their diagnoses who are women. And the fact is we've been left behind, which is always generally the case. I think it wasn't until sometime in the late eighties, nineties where clinicians in clinical studies, they had to include non-white people and women. Yeah. Otherwise, it generally has been a do what you want and not do what you want. It's generally been white men. And so there is such a limited framework of thought because the world interacts with each one of us differently, and thus we are going to show symptoms, we're going to show differences in our neurological... Just how it really kind of exudes from ourselves very differently.

And women do a far better job masking than men do because again, as we've kind of discussed, the fact is we are subject to very stringent behavioral patterns and we're used to having to respect those if we wanted to have same access and opportunity in life. Any other questions out there? Oh, I see one. All right. Oh, I see a few. Okay. Let's see. Can you suggest resources for determining if and how you communicate your neurological differences or other disabilities to your employer manager as well? Potential reasonable accommodation modifications. So in terms of... Well, I'll give you a chance, Julissa, in terms of how would you communicate it?

Julissa Garcia:

That is a hard question. I suppose, I always encourage my clients to be direct, but to go in with resources and information and come in, not with your quote unquote, what they may see as weaknesses, but come in with what your strength are as someone who's a neurodivergent. Don't ever come in with your hand folded, always come in with your handheld and say, "Listen, this is the case. I've just recently been diagnosed. This is how I will contribute and I'm currently contributing."

They hired you for a reason and you're there for a reason. Play to your strengths. Never come in showing your weak hand. There is no weakness in a neurodivergence diagnoses. It's only strengths. And once you realize that you are an asset as you've been hired because you were an asset, that doesn't change. When I speak to clients, I speak to empower them to understand that there is no weakness in neurodivergence unless you see it as a weakness. And unless you reflect it and you present it as one, there's always strength in it. You have to find it. You just have to find yours. Like you said, we all have our superpowers.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And something I have found that I have done well, my employer, JBC, loves me as is, which is amazing. And they actually leverage my superpower, which is having a wealth of knowledge and range of experiences and things, but also too being able to think of things critically and tell you how I would approach it, so to speak, based on variable factors. And so oftentimes, even if it's not my department that the higher ups at JBC or even staff members will email me and say, "Hey, this is my issue. How would you go about this?" And I love sharing information. So I'll send them a voice note back and say, "Hey, I do this, but I consider this and if then and what whatnot." And it's amazing being able to feel like a valued member of the team because I can tell you, when you are invested in your workplace, it's very difficult to see things being done wrong and to sit quiet, especially when you know what the answer is.

But I would say in terms of letting your employer know about your diagnoses, because there's still so much discrimination out there, I generally have approached it, particularly with clients who start engaging in behaviors that don't really work for me. Not that they're bad behaviors, but start using terms, let's say synergy and all of these vague terms, because I don't know what that means. And you can define it all you want, but your definition is vague too. I need very direct concrete... Or how people pussyfoot around things because they don't want to hurt your feelings about changes.

Julissa Garcia:

Yeah.

Adrienne Lawrence:

I have said to clients, "I am on the autism spectrum. I only respond to directness. So if you'd like to conserve your time, just tell me what you need."

Julissa Garcia:

Agreed.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And some clients do that very well. They go, "Oh, well, thank God." And then they can just say, "We're going to change this, we're going to do this." And I say, "Because it's like my feelings aren't attached to this, but my time is important, so I'm going to need you to just say what's up." And they love it. Some of the clients never get it and they can't take down that wall. And I've had to pass on them because I'm not speaking their language, I don't understand it, but I generally have only brought it up when I needed to in terms of, "Hey, I just want you to know how I process things." Or it's basically saying, "This is a language I speak and I'm not understanding that dialect that you're using right now." Because again, there's nothing wrong with you or me. It's a matter of we are now speaking very different languages and so let's see if there's a way we can both speak the same language and move forward.

And I guess directly for management, again, I only bring it up when I kind of need something different from someone when I'm not getting it. And also too, I'm very adept and I pay attention to people because some people... I like to read things and some of these people don't read, they don't read emails. They want to hear it. So when I start realizing I just said that in an email and that continues to happen, I realize I need to talk to this person and I need to keep it very short and to the point. And so it's a matter of, it's not just people with ASD who are asking for accommodations. We're actually all accommodating each other and we do it all the time. I think people just don't realize that.

What are some tips for recruiters when conducting interviews with neurodiverse community? Again, I'd say the same kind of recommendations in terms of create space for the thought of that, if someone's not adhering to your behavioral norms or thoughts of how it should be, that person just might be different. They're not being rude. They maybe don't, just like certain Asian cultures about eye contact. If you automatically assume, "Oh, that person didn't make eye contact with me, they're uncouth, they don't know how to act there." You could miss out on an incredible person, incredible resource simply because it's a behavioral difference. So create space, take away the thought of what the person should be and just go to the heart of what are the things I'm actually looking for here? Or also asking somebody if you see someone kind of struggling, don't necessarily directly ask them, "Hey, are you autistic?" But is there something I can do to make you more comfortable? Is there anything that would work better for you for this situation? Julissa, any other thoughts on that?

Julissa Garcia:

No, those are perfect things. It's always giving the person space and being able to be vulnerable so they can understand that you're not disrespecting them, but you're allowing them to be who they are and a safe space to do it.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Absolutely. As far as a book on neurodiversity, if you go ahead and email info@jenniferbrownconsulting.com, I'm sure I can provide a handout with various resources available that will include several of the things I've already mentioned that will be helpful resources.

Also, let's see, another question here. I love the reflective question to ask yourself as a team member or leader, what other questions should those interacting in work with people on the spectrum to check biases and the why behind feelings? So any other questions? Should those interacting... Hopefully the thought of, again, if you see... It doesn't even matter because some people aren't diagnosed, but I can pick up on it. I could tell you if someone's on the spectrum pretty quick. And it's like just let people do them. Ask what's the core purpose of our interaction? And as long as you're getting that, you're getting enough, and if you feel you need that person to act a certain way, then you got to check yourself. Because what you're doing is trying to restrict someone or create a world that's exactly what you want. And that's exactly like you, and that's not what inclusivity is about.

How would you advise re: job applications that ask people to self-identify their disabilities when neurodiversity is included in the list of disabilities, even though the applicant does not consider themselves disabled, when you reveal to the employer? I love that question because any kind of job I've applied for where it says disability, I don't consider myself disabled, so I don't check that.

Julissa Garcia:

Same thing.

Adrienne Lawrence:

And I always tell also the organizations I work with to leave room for that, to ask someone. Don't say, "Are you disabled?" As much as you can say, "Are you neurodiverse? Are you neurodivergent?" And put that down as a question. And as we know, let's see, so Gavin Newsom is dyslexic. He's neurodivergent. So when he came in at the state of California, he said essentially, "Your websites and the font you're using, it's not accessible to individuals who are dyslexic. And they're like five fonts. So let's just make it all like Arial, get rid of this Comic Sans, people can't read that." And it's like these basic things that are not big lifts in any form or fashion, but they bring more people in than they exclude people. And so you want to look for those kind of opportunities.

Let's see. I would also say something that I do for example with clients is if I'm having a... Because your ADHD made me, it brought [inaudible 00:45:17] from me. So if I'm on a call with a client and let's say I'm particularly hyped and my brain is doing various things, I will explain to the client, you're going to see me doing various things and I'm not going to make contact with the camera.

I am on the autism spectrum, my comorbidity is ADHD. My mind is moving. And if you ever see me doing things you should know it means I'm paying attention even harder, that this is a way in which you are maximizing my skill and I may need to get up and walk around the room. There's something that autists do called wandering. Yeah, and it's funny because I did it throughout all of law school and someone would say, "You're never in class." Because I got to get up and walk around. I got to go somewhere. I need to get different stimuli.

Julissa Garcia:

Yes, 15 years in the US attorneys, never sat down. They're like, "Is your work done?" I'm like, "It's been done, but I can't sit here. I need to move."

Adrienne Lawrence:

And so creating space for that in your organization, not trying to restrict.

Julissa Garcia:

I'm not avoiding work. Yeah.

Adrienne Lawrence:

Exactly.

Julissa Garcia:

And that's one of those things like I'm not avoiding work, but if I sit here, it will just be done. And please give me those five minutes. I need that water cooler time. Let me just go walk away and come back and then I'm recharged and ready to work.

Adrienne Lawrence:

A lot of the old school mentality and thoughts about how workers are supposed to work really has to go. It means you can lose out on very talented players who know what their needs are and can go about achieving your goals, but they may not necessarily play by the rules or the ideas in your mind about how to go about doing it. And so when you have someone who is a micromanager, it's going to be very difficult for them. But at the same time, it's important for people to develop the inclusive skills of recognizing that I'm going to have to create room for difference and the goal is for the job to get done. Does this person do the job? And that's what we should ask ourselves every time because simply because they're different, they don't go to happy hour or maybe they don't have the same knowledge base about the game last night. It doesn't mean they're not a valuable member of the team. And we also want to ensure that there's opportunities and avenues for that person to continue contributing to the organization and feel like a part of it. Yes. Again, it's all a matter of inclusivity.

Julissa, any closing thoughts or words? We went a lot longer than I thought we would.

Julissa Garcia:

No. And didn't even notice, our apologies. For me, now as a clinician and someone who's on both ends of it, create the space. Allow for someone to feel vulnerable enough to be able to come to you and say, "Hey, I'm having a hard time because of X, Y, Z." If already you know or you don't know for them feeling safe enough to come in and say, "There is something I need to discuss. I need you to understand that this is how I work because of X, Y, Z." And having that understanding and having the empathy and the knowledge, I suppose that I'm hoping you guys will end up getting, to be inclusive to share those moments with them and to understand that sometimes small talk is hard. I do need to get up and walk around, but I can bet you $20 that when you come back to my desk, everything is done and then some, and I did Jim's job too because he just couldn't get it done.

Adrienne Lawrence:

I think that sounds exactly on point. And last thing, something I'd say is if you notice someone's different or if you are different, simply sitting down with your supervisor, your boss or them sitting down with you and saying, "Let's create a process that really works, that works for both of us in terms of what are your needs?" And like Julissa just said, "I need to be able to get up and walk around and do this and this and this." And maybe if the boss is a micromanager, say, "Okay, I generally like an update on X, Y, and Z." And so Julissa can factor that in and say, "Okay, well maybe I send you an email every morning letting you know what was accomplished the day before and what I seek to accomplish today. And I give you a status update every morning or in the afternoon. What works best for you?"

Because as we know, certain managers, certain supervisors, they have different needs. Some of them don't want to know a thing until there's a problem. Some of them want to be in very intimate in the process. It's a matter of sitting down and working together about what process works best and how we can achieve the goals and not necessarily step on each other's toes in the process. But again, it's all about communication and creating that space for inclusivity.

Jennifer Brown:

Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity inclusion and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

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