Trust in Action: How Inclusive Leaders Can Create a Better World with Author Jim Massey

You can also listen on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play.

—

Jim Massey:

There are plenty of people who represent the dimensions that I represent, that it's action, action, action, and I just said it, move on. It's like, decision made, we don't go back. That tends to be the world in which the BS is caused, right? Let's be very honest.

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

It's why I call it built systems. And so, one of the things that I often have to help people understand is, we've been talking a lot about trust of self. And so I'll often go back to that, but ironically sometimes what challenges trust in self is not trusting the system. And so being able to understand from that leader's perspective, and so even a CEO, everyone thinks has all the power until you think about the board they have to answer to. And so everyone has a larger system, of which they're either the individual or the head of the team trying to change that system.

Speaker 3:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, onto the episode.

Hello, and welcome back to The Will to Change. This episode features a conversation between Jennifer and Jim Massey. Jim discusses his new book, Trust in Action, a Leader's Guide to Act. Right. Now. And the conversation really is about trust, how leaders can build trust within an organization, and the pitfalls of taking action without building trust. And Jim talks about as well not only trusting others and trusting self, but trust in systems. Anyway, it's a really rich conversation, hope you enjoy it, and now onto the episode.

Jennifer Brown:

Jim, welcome to The Will to Change.

Jim Massey:

Thanks Jennifer, love being on here.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, it's not your first time-

Jim Massey:

No.

Jennifer Brown:

... joining our community here, and you have your first book and your new book, right, out in April?

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

Trust in Action? So everybody, Jim and I met on a panel back in a job or two ago, I think, for you.

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

And the panel was on all things DEI, as you can imagine. But there was Jim sitting on the end, I was like, "Who is this guy, and how did he become so eloquent, and authentic, and personal, and humble about your journey?" And I immediately trusted you, and trust is this mysterious thing, right? It's sort of easy to break, hard to build. And just like, hmm, intangible. And yet, you had me at ally. You just jumped in there, and in the physical body you're in and the identity you're in, things were coming out of your mouth that I didn't expect. And shame on me, but at the same time I'm probably well-founded in terms of not expecting somebody like you to be as fluent as you are, and really mean it.

So I just can't wait for people to read the book. I'm so glad you wrote a book on trust, and I think you've built a lot of trust over the course of your career. Not just to get things done, but to continue your own journey and evolution as an inclusive human and leader. Trust has been everything, probably, for you, in terms of the way others have trusted you, and invested in you, and the way you've trusted others to lead you and guide you so that you could use the good that you could do in the world, you could create that good. As that person who's inhabited the C-suite and some high positions in companies, you're the exact leader that so many of us hope for and rely on, and if we have enough of a relationship deploy, I deploy people like you, Jim, because you're ready, you're willing, you're eager, you're informed, and you're like, "Yes, tell me where I can be helpful."

And you don't even wait to be told, you know, and you've already been thinking about it, and you're already there, you know? So I just want to give you a shout out that it's very significant to be reminded that there are leaders like you, and that it is possible, especially when we feel like we're sort of being tossed about in rough seas when it comes to equity and inclusion these days, and on the national and political stage. It's just very, you're a port in a storm. So anyway, so tell us-

Jim Massey:

[inaudible 00:05:09]-

Jennifer Brown:

Tell us about you.

Jim Massey:

Before we go any further I have to laugh a little bit, because I will never forget when we met. It was about 45 minutes into an hour panel, and you just kind of put your hands on your knees... We were book-ending a pretty significant row of people.

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, you were on the end, it was a big panel, yeah it was.

Jim Massey:

And it was a straight line, and you couldn't see me easily. And I said something, and you just put your hands on your knees, and you were like, "Is that really a white guy down there?" And I knew, because my mom raised me to believe behind all humor is truth. And when you used that humor so perfectly, it was right on. I'm like, "I want to continue to be a co-conspirator with that one." So I love our origination, and how we got started together, and I'm just so proud to be here with you.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, and I'm proud of you as a new author. And so, tell us what you'd like to about who you are, what you do these days, and why a book about trust, and why trust in action specifically?

Jim Massey:

Yeah. I think, why a book? When COVID hit I'd been in healthcare, and I started seeing leaders around me uncertain of what to do. And I started to realize how quickly I could identify they weren't trusting themselves, all of a sudden when the world shut down so many of us were thinking, "What do we do?" And it's almost like we'd forgotten everything we had learned prior, and what made us unique in our learning agility, and being able to adapt. And that's when I started thinking, "You know, I've always..." In graduate school, I have a Masters in Organization Development, and I kind of started taking... I call myself a practitioner, and there's a big criticism about management theory never gets into practice.

But I always try to bridge and take nuggets from people, and then break it down and keep it simple. And so I have a trust model that I've always used, and has helped me transform myself on multiple topics, from climate taction, to DE&I, to human rights, to... You name any topic within the ESG space, I'm the chief sustainability officer for XY Laboratory. And so I have used this model time and time again, so I had this proven model that I could sense people needed at a time when we were facing some of the biggest challenges, and we continue to face in the world. And so if we couldn't trust ourselves, then it gets into the title, what is trust, how is it defined, how do we make it tangible? But then also, I love to play with words. So there's trust in action, seeing trust in the action form as a verb versus a noun.

But then there's also this philosophy I have that if you can't... It's a Martin Luther King quote, that if you can't fly, run, if you can't run, walk, if you can't walk, crawl, but always keep moving. And it's the action versus inaction every time. And so I love that trust in action is the word action not as a verb but as a noun, and we can trust it too. And so playing with that is how I developed the Trust in Action book that's part-memoir, part-business case, but all founded around this model that I have relied on for the last two decades to just keep chipping away at changing the world around me.

Jennifer Brown:

Beautiful. That's so interesting, to trust ourselves, particularly coming from a leader like you on topics like DEI and the way the world is changing. I know that people would look at you and make assumptions about what you understand, and your level of sophistication on issues, and probably be wrong, which is delightful about you. But to be trusted and to trust others, to teach us, to have hard conversations with us, and to be trusted to do enough in the physical manifestation of you, and all that comes with that, I'm sure that that hasn't come easily for people who necessarily are investing in you. So you don't feel trusted, if you will, your motives, whatever. And then you trusting others to give you what you need to grow, which is necessarily I think a humbling process, to say, "I don't know, I don't know the answer, I need help, here's what I'm struggling with," et cetera.

So it seems that you're right about vulnerability in the book, because I feel like it's ironic and sort of counter-intuitive that saying, "I don't know," saying, "I need help" actually builds trust, it creates it because it's a real moment between humans. And I wonder, in those days, and when you were using your model, coping with the pandemic, thinking about writing the book on it, was that model being tested for you, and I guess what convinced you that this had legs and this was like the missing piece to the trust equation?

Jim Massey:

Oh Jennifer, this is the crux of the entire conversation. Was it a battle? Yes, why am I qualified to write a book, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Imposter syndrome.

Jim Massey:

Yeah, and people say it's not real. For me, it is. I'm raised to be humble, not to assume. And I talk about, there's one chapter in particular I want to start with in this conversation, and it's stepping into the BS. And I think it's really important to delineate between that which is the natural system that some may call a universe, and others may put forms of religion or spirituality around that which connects us all, to the space that humans create that I call the built systems, the BS, the things that I was raised in to go along to get along, not rock the boat, don't create any drama. And so it's just go, go, go, but when you start to identify, "Hey, wait a minute, did I just in my vision see a little blink, like in the digital thing, like something in the universe isn't right?"

That system doesn't feel right to me. And so what I write a lot about is when we see a built system that's working as intended, that isn't right for everyone, how do we step into that BS and start to change it? And the important thing for me is I believe, and I've often thought that it was one way, that before stepping in the BS it's, we had to believe in ourselves that we could change the team around us to transform the built system or the world, depending on the scale at which we go. Because sometimes the built system can just be the family unit, right? The team could be the siblings versus parents.

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

It could be an industry within the economy of the global scale, so it moves up and down on what we're trying to identify as trustworthy. But at the basis, I was struggling with trusting myself, that I was capable enough to write this book, that others would be interested enough to hear my words, and that ultimately putting literally pen to paper and doing it, and that's the model, no surprise, I can, I care, I do.

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:12:51].

Jim Massey:

And so I tested this model through and through throughout the process of getting this book, and even coming to the call with you today there's those little pieces. Like yes, I can, I care enough, and I'm going to do this call-

Jennifer Brown:

That's right.

Jim Massey:

... and that's why I'm sitting here with you right now.

Jennifer Brown:

And you admit it, you're like, "This is a little new, and it won't be new for long, but it is new." But it's also super-exciting to work so hard on something, and then to have people interview you about it is a wonderful gift. And helps you kind of make sense, actually, of what you've just been through, which is the writing of a book as just a soul... Not crushing, it's like a soul-activating, soul... It's a test, it's a clarifying exercise, it's a courageous act. You have to be very fearless to do it, and to put your words in the page, and have the audacity to think that someone's going to pick it up and love it. So, there's a huge leap of faith there. The actions of trust, I'm curious, you don't see those two words together that often, and I love that you juxtapose them, and it's such a challenge for us to think about cognitively.

What is the behavior, and the actions, and the choices, that create trust? Trust is the lagging indicator, the leading indicator is the actions. And I think when it comes to DEI, I know in my world and a world we both care a lot about, the trust in the leader is the culmination of a lot of different inputs. What I hear, what I don't hear, what I see, what I don't see, what's reflected in the BS, built system. What seems to be normalized, what is rewarded, what is centered, what is talked about, what is celebrated, what is promoted and advanced? And so trust is the culmination of all those things, but sometimes I find it's so intangible, all of those things I just named, that I can't really give a recipe, or steps, or actions to leaders who want to build it.

So anyway, I know that's what the book is about, but would you like to give us some highlights of actions that you recommend that are the biggest trust-builders?

Jim Massey:

Yes, absolutely. And I'm going to start with one that most people don't think about, but especially when we're talking about DE&I it's the hidden bias of, is someone capable, do they deserve to be sitting here with me? So if you think about can, care, do, this model goes both ways. It's me looking outward, and it's others viewing me, because trust is the space between us. And so for can, when I'm talking to a leader and I'm focused on, these are the things we think about around each other, people are evaluating, "Why is this person here, are they capable, do they have the skills and knowledge?" And on the flip side for someone the way you describe me, the way I present representing the 17 powers of privilege, many many have bias for me.

And so often I early and often share my purpose, it's, I was born to build, and sometimes that means restructuring, it means tearing down and thinking about others' needs in a system. And just saying those words, sometimes people are like, "Oh, interesting. I'll listen a little bit longer." And so then I can move into the care model about proving to have others' interests at heart other than my own, and start to share antidotes of leaders being descriptive with what those leaders look like, or sound like, or may do, and how they influenced me. And then ultimately the do is sharing the anecdotes, it's why so much of my book is a memoir, because it is about, you can go on Google and see this actually happen.

And so that's what any point in time, what I want leaders to be able to start doing, is taking those three aspects and quickly assessing... Because if something's not going right, chances are it's because you haven't walked your walk, or people are not buying what you're trying to sell them, that you're telling them's a benefit, because you're not actually understanding what that benefit is. Or you're missing a huge gap, and I have examples in the book where people actually said, "You're not qualified to make that call," yet I was their leader. And so, how do you start to shift that, take that feedback, and move, and take action?

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm, that do piece, and the storytelling, and personalizing it, and the memoir aspect of your book. Part of the do is not just deciding and actions, it's what you choose to share, and how you contextualize who you are in the built system, and how you become vulnerable, how you bring people into your learning process, and your own aha moments, your own regrets perhaps, your own challenges, and constantly being other-focused. And some of us have different rebalancing to do, some of us have had so much other focus, and we really need to be self-focused. And then others of us I think who are very much told that our opinion of ourselves and we matter in a built system, it behooves us to invest in being other-focused.

It reminds me a little bit of, there's a book I had on my shelf forever that I thought was kind of funny, because the title is Ego is the Enemy, and it was written by a man. And I was like, "Yep, that is a book that you might need to read." But I thought to myself, "Ooh," like the ego in its best form is so important to kind of claim for some of us that have felt small in the system, have felt disregarded, have not felt powerful. And so it's so interesting, you and I sort of represent in some ways, and in other ways we share identities, but in other ways we sort of look at the built system and we're experiencing the different pieces of it. And it's the same system, we're just in different boats riding through the storm.

Jim Massey:

100%, and I think for me at any given time, and maybe in my action I'm realizing the action is not demonstrating caring, so I need to step out of that element of trust and jump into the element of caring. Or if I'm in the caring, it may be, I have no idea what they're speaking about. And so it may be that I need to jump into the can, and go to the vulnerability of listening and processing before I can jump back into do, and actually start to rebuild it appropriately. So it is kind of just... But again, it keeps coming back to, if I just heard people say, "Oh, I just don't trust that, I don't trust that," by having the can, care, do it allows me to, in a very fluid way, keep going through an action, that that's where the trust in action comes into play.

Is if something's not working, can I diagnose another way I could ever flow to try to keep things progressing forward?

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm. I love how flexible that is, that's really, really beautiful, and it requires a bit of shape-shifting, and flexibility, and agility, and really careful attention, I think, to how is my presence, how are my words being received, are they having the desired impact? And checking in on that, because often that's not visible to us, or we're wrong about it. And that early and often calibration with someone whom you are trying to uplift, support, advocate for, et cetera, so many assumptions can be made when you are sort of paid in your job to make decisions all day long. We move to the do, I think there's a bias for action. So while I love that action's in your title, the fact that you've put trust next to it is never something I think that people think of as actionable, necessarily.

But slowing down, what you described too, the ability to adjust, and listen, and re-listen, and re-check, and change direction, all of that takes time, and really time well-spent, a wonderful investment in culture, honestly. I think what you're describing would truly enable organizations to change in a direction that's much more informed, much more compassionate. But it's a bit of go slow to go fast, and you have to kind of pull back and throttle that want, and that business bad habit, in a way, of just rolling through it, and making decisions. And I'm sure it's hard, like when you've, I guess, held this with other leaders, senior leaders, and they struggle with this, how have you I guess either coached, or what have you shared with them to encourage them to get over the...

Whether it's a hump of understanding, whether it's ego getting involved, overly involved, whether it's the bias for speed, what do you consider your most successful partnership with another leader that identifies perhaps as you do, in terms of adjusting themselves, and evolving, and changing? I'm kind of curious how you've rubbed off on peers, as I'm sure you have.

Jim Massey:

Yes, yeah, others. And Jennifer, you're so right, it's why I had to use trust and action at the opposite ends of the sentence. Because there are plenty of people who represent the dimensions that I represent, that it's action, action, action, and I just said it, move on, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

It's like, decision made, we don't go back. That tends to be the world in which the BS is caused, right? Let's be very honest.

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

It's why I call it built systems. And so, one of the things that I often have to help people understand is, we've been talking a lot about trust of self, and so I'll often go back to that. But ironically, sometimes what challenges trust in self is not trusting the system. And so being able to understand from that leader's perspective, let's say that they aren't the final senior... One of my favorite sayings about the CEO is the board only has one throat to choke, and so even a CEO, everyone thinks has all the power, until you think about the board they have to answer to. And so, everyone has a larger system of which they're either the individual or the head of a team trying to change that system.

And so a lot of times, I find myself working with a leader to think about, so what in the team or system do you not trust? What isn't working there that's forcing you to take action without reflecting back on yourself? So I talk about can, care, do at the self, the team, and then the system level. And I would say the majority of the time when I'm talking to someone who looks and represents very similar things as I do, it's taking that from self, and then exploring what other vectors are working against them. Is it that they aren't sure if the system cares about them? And I'll even go so far as to talk about the polarization we're experiencing today. Famously Edelman comes out every year at the World Economic Forum saying, "We are losing trust in government, in journalism, in education and religious institutions."

It's hard to be a leader if you don't trust the systems in which you're being forced to play. And so, how do we continually find trust in ourselves to keep taking action? Not in that repetitive action for action's sake, but to cause good in both permanence and impact. That's the type of action I'm trying to get leaders to think about. And so I often am working on their own models, and just helping them realize, call out the stuff that's holding them back, and forcing them to show up the way they are in their leadership capacity. Does that make sense?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. I mean, such a fascinating thing like, do you trust the system? I mean, it sounds to me like it's a juicy question for an engagement survey. Like, do you trust that people here, in this environment, which is hard because environments are just people, right?

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

It's like, people are like, companies aren't companies, they're just a bunch of individuals, so-

Jim Massey:

Jennifer, it's one thing I talk about, when I hear a lot of people say businesses can't have human values. We have to, it's a human-built system. So we have to have human values, because we're the ones who created it, and we can fix it right? But it's so funny-

Jennifer Brown:

You're right, we do. We do have [inaudible 00:25:59].

Jim Massey:

... we try to have separation of church and state, and in the case of built system we created this. We may be a different definition, right? It may not be-

Jennifer Brown:

Sure, me, not complete, exactly.

Jim Massey:

... as broad as we want, yes. But we can fix it by influencing those who built it also.

Jennifer Brown:

That's right.

Jim Massey:

And so I'm using the we in the largest collective that we can, [inaudible 00:26:20]-

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, like a more complete we, yeah. Because, you're right.

Jim Massey:

Yeah. If you were talking about engagement, I'm sorry.

Jennifer Brown:

No, that's okay, but the we that built the system was not a complete we.

Jim Massey:

Correct.

Jennifer Brown:

And so the built system and the built system, they work for you, and less helpful for somebody else, or even harmful for somebody else.

Jim Massey:

[inaudible 00:26:38].

Jennifer Brown:

And that's the problem with built systems that weren't built by lots of different kinds of people, as we know, as we know.

Jim Massey:

[inaudible 00:26:44].

Jennifer Brown:

And challenging a system that was designed by people like you to work for people like you is also a really provocative question, sort of not trusting a system, not because it doesn't work for me, but because I know it doesn't work for others. And when you dig in and hear that kind of information, as a senior leader, what do you do with that? Then it becomes a question of saying there is not a lot of high-degree of trust in our leaders, in the direction that we're going in our commitment to patients, or customers, or there's not a lot of internal commitment to for example I would say diversifying our pipeline of talent, you know?

Jim Massey:

Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Brown:

My company says one thing, but then does a different thing and I know there's a lot of broken trust. And then, how can you trust in yourself and bring that full self? I think it relates too, to... By the way, your BS could stand for belief and self too.

Jim Massey:

Yes. Oh, hey, I love that.

Jennifer Brown:

I like that, step into the belief in self.

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

Which is also belief, like you were saying, like, "I have the elements and the ingredients that are needed, that are important. To rebuild systems, I want to be at the table so that they can be built better." And I can challenge these systems, because what I know to be true is that something better can exist, and something better can always exist. I mean, that is a fact, that things that were built a while ago, we all know anything in life, it's going to break down, it's not really going to be relevant, it's not going to work, it's going to get overwhelmed, right?

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

The inputs are going to change. But we're very slow to change these built systems, and it has broken trust, because it's been delayed and deprioritized. And we learned in the last couple of years how much pain has been incurred because of systems that haven't been examined, and by leaders who have not I guess trusted that they need to change. Trust in the self can also be, "I believe that I can change, I believe that I can evolve, I believe that I can lead differently, I believe I can be an inclusive leader." I think a lot of people don't trust themselves to be that, and therefore when you don't trust yourself you won't try new things, you won't line up your support network, you won't find the mentorship you need, because even your just starting baseline is, "I'm going to be bad at this, and it's not even worth trying.

"And what is it going to do for me anyway?" Which is kind of a heartbreaking... Sometimes I get to that kernel, and I feel that that's what's going on for people. And I'm disturbed and distressed by it, because none of us thrive if we do not feel encouraged and capable, and trust in that self. Like you said, it begins there, and then you become the change agent. But at the end of the day, you have to come back to yourself and be like, "Am I doing the work, can I get up out of bed and say... Or if this is my last day, am I proud? Am I proud of how I've really built that kind of environment around me and used everything I possibly could for change?" Anyway.

Jim Massey:

No, it's powerful because I haven't been this all my life. One of the gifts you gave me one time was you talked about everyone covers, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

And that sent me down this exploratory process of, what is it that I'm covering? And one of the initial things was my faith, and it's actually a chapter I write about. I almost have said I came out to the world as Christian, and even though that is a Western-dominant faith, and a power and privilege. But then something else that I've been covering most of my life, is I sit 90% of the time in the right side of my brain. There is no linear thought that I have ever experienced that I'm aware of, and yet in school it is rote study, memorize, pass the test. In organizations it's, "We believe in data, show me data." I don't think in data, I think in abstract. And so my first chapter is called Collecting the Dots, and it wasn't until I was in my late 30s, and I was in my 16th leadership development program in multinational organizations that one of the people doing it said, "Jim, you took a test, and we don't think this program's right for you."

Now, this is coming from... I was a salutatorian in my high school class because I took advanced programs, and the valedictorian took less. And so in the weighted, it's like, we didn't have that then. So not that I'm still bitter, but I am competitive. So I learned how to win in the linear world, even though I didn't think that way. So here I am hearing, "I failed a test? I don't fail tests, I've learned how to do that." But then I said, "Is that bad?" She was like, "Oh, no, no." I need to be very careful with how I use my words here, things are changing so rapidly that we need more people who don't need the linear, because the old ways of solving the problems we're facing that we've never seen before. So, this is going to be your time to lead.

And I'll never forget where I was sitting that moment in time, because this goes as far back as when I was 10 years old, and I was kicked out of Sunday school for challenging my organized religion's philosophies on the role of women in religion.

Jennifer Brown:

Woo, of course you did that, of course.

Jim Massey:

Right?

Jennifer Brown:

It's you.

Jim Massey:

But to have someone tell me in my late 30s that I didn't have to pretend and be that anymore to fit in was transformative for me, and the turning point that started to allow me to trust myself. And then, boy, watch out at work. I started making people who looked like me really uncomfortable, but I no longer cared.

Jennifer Brown:

Awesome.

Jim Massey:

And ironically, the individual was sharing with me a phrase that many in the DEI community had gifted to me, where they talk about wearing their mask. And I didn't realize how long I'd been wearing that mask, and so I got to shatter one of the masks that I'd been wearing. And it sounds silly to many people when they hear this, but organizations did not want my abstract thinking. Once that session was over, I went... And this sounds goofy, but I took my organizational chart that had boxes, and it always drove me mad, because I always felt like I was boxing people in. And Jennifer, a part of my rebellion was to turn them all into circles. And when I showed it to my function of about 200 people like, "Why are there circles?"

I'm like, "Because I refuse to box you in anymore." And that language was enough to start getting others to realize I cared about them. So as silly as it sounds, changing how I showed my org chart with language of intentionality, I was no longer going to box you into the org chart, I started to show others I had their interests at heart. Sounds goofy, but I can tell you as part of my memoir it was transformative in changing my team to change their world.

Jennifer Brown:

I love that, I love that you brought up just the thinking styles, and even just that as a diversity dimension, which is what I would describe it as, is not fitting into the sort of way that things seem to happen here, you know? I don't think that way, and I don't... And then you get dinged for not presenting the dots, like connecting the dots. You said collecting the dots, which I love. I'm actually very similar to you, it must be why we vibe so well together. But thinking in circles, thinking in clouds, and thought bubbles, and it's never linear never linear, in a world that really rewards the linear, the concrete. Everything is about STEM all the time, which is, I never could have been a STEM kid, never.

Jim Massey:

No, and I love those who can. I thrive around them.

Jennifer Brown:

But it's, so we're STEAM with the A, which is-

Jim Massey:

Yes, absolutely.

Jennifer Brown:

They've added the A, which I love. And I think that whole element of diversity is invisible about you, but I love that you sort of began to use your voice as a young person, and then you gained in confidence, and you said, "This is right, and I'm going to continue to use it." And that, you talk about trust in self. Some of us, you're right, it takes many, many years to reach that point where we tell the truth.

Jim Massey:

Yes, yep. I never went back to that Sunday school class. But, I also had the privilege of parents who taught me... Where we are, you may not get to always do that, always do it at home, but you have to respect that authority. And that's kind of when I started to wear that mask, and now you can imagine both parents are like, "Oh goodness, what have you written about?" But I said, "No, you guys taught me early on I had a voice, and it mattered." Again, such a luxury of power to have someone telling a child your voice matters, and that we respect you. But just maybe watch out a little bit, not always all the time, you know?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, yeah.

Jim Massey:

Self-regulation is an important thing, especially for someone like me.

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, totally. It reminds me of the... And it's controversial, but the privilege walk that maybe some of our listeners have done, and they read off a series of statements, a facilitator, and then you take a step forward, a step back if you're a yes or a no. And if you were ever told you could be anything you wanted to be in this world, take a step forward. And what I hear and what you're saying, it is a privilege, it is absolutely... These are the kinds of intangible privileges with a small P, as I like to call them, that are so, so helpful, actually, versus harmful and scary. So helpful to look at that and say, "So believing that I'm being supported in that way enabled me to pursue my path so differently than a lot of other people who had to supply that for themselves."

That's not a bad thing, it doesn't make you a bad person. You were very fortunate, but I know that you've also felt the responsibility that comes with having had those tailwinds. That's what's most important, it's not how you were born and what you were told. I mean, that's a detail of life, it's something that I think is greatly out of our control. But to be in a position of giving back, and even as we get older realizing, "I don't know what I don't know," and there's more and more that we realize we don't know, and that humility, which is sometimes counterintuitive for leaders who achieve the C-suite, the way that you are going to teach on trust I think is going to be very probably challenging for people, because you love to challenge others, especially ones that are your peers.

But they're not trusted, I would say there's not a lot of trust in leadership now, in institutions, in leadership, in leaders that look like you do. Promises have been broken, made and broken, especially over the last couple of years. So when you think about the... Given you're writing on trust, when the fear now is in 2023 that for example we're losing our commitment to DEI, right?

Jim Massey:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

And imagine how this is landing, and you know how this is landing on people, to say they cared, and then they don't care, we don't care about it anymore, I'm not important anymore, we don't matter. It's not just an omission, it is a breakage. And then you add layoffs, you add on all the restructurings, and the ways those break trust as well. So anyway, it's very hurtful, I think, to be important, and to have the conversations that we had so openly, and to be given the information in order to make changes, and then to have it decrease in importance and sort of fade. And that's where a lot of people are feeling right now. And then we add that the working in hybrid, quasi-return to office but not really, and lots of folks are having a hard time kind of connecting in and feeling that trust.

So maybe my question is, the state of trust is probably pretty frayed right now, and I'm so excited to have your book out there. But how can we honor... Part of trust-building is honoring what we've been told, and remembering what we've been told, and right now there are a lot of headwinds to keeping DEI top of mind. And I fear there's a lot of breakage right now, so I guess maybe the question is what would you say to leaders who are research-constrained, who are navigating unprecedented territory, who are in the midst of recessionary environment, and making really difficult choices about layoffs and structure? Can trust be maintained in this time, do you think, and what would you advise?

Jim Massey:

Oh, Jennifer, as always you-

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, I was like, "Hmm."

Jim Massey:

No, no, no, it's beautiful. And I want to share with you, I talked about... And we were on a recent triad conversation that left me in awe in the last three minutes. I'm not going to tell your listeners what, but tune in.

Jennifer Brown:

Spoiler alerts, yeah.

Jim Massey:

Yes. But I have to come back to taking off my mask of Christianity, and more importantly describing faith, and I want to talk to any listener out there who's in this state that you and I are in, worried about what's next. And so chapter 11 in my book is called This I Know, as a child when I was still allowed in Sunday school there's this song called, Jesus Loves Me, This I Know. And that stuck with me, but I share in this chapter the importance of having faith. And it's not necessarily a religion, but it's three concepts that I have found consistent with all the major religions around the world. The first is there's something larger that connects us all, outside of the built systems, the BS, there's the natural system. Many will call it the universe, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm.

Jim Massey:

We're connected beyond the built systems, and so first there's something larger than all of us. The second is, I believe in humanity, I believe in the goodness of each one of us. I believe in tomorrow, many religions talk about there's a life after, but I'm talking about literally, I'm going to go to sleep, I'm going to wake up tomorrow, I believe that.

Jennifer Brown:

That's faith.

Jim Massey:

Right? The faith is, there's something larger, I believe in you, I believe in anyone listening, and I believe that we can take action for a better tomorrow. So if we take that faith, I want to take it into anyone struggling, and because it was a privilege I had I want to give something to you if you're listening now. I'm not talking to you Jennifer, because I know you know this, but you have a voice, it matters, and the world needs it. That which connects us all needs your voice, be a leader. If you can vote, if you can buy from a company, if you're not pleased with what a company's doing take that money elsewhere, be a leader and trust yourself to take an action that will start to create something a little bit better.

Because when everything else around you feels as though what Edelman says we're not trusting in, the reason I wrote trust in action is because I need you to believe in that your value matters, that you trust yourself and everything that has brought you to this moment is for a reason bigger than yourself. So trust in that action, take it, and just know that that action in and of itself is going to transform the teams of which you're a part, and it will transform that world that seems overwhelming today.

Jennifer Brown:

Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing with all of us that reminder, whenever the built systems are getting you down there is actually a much bigger system afoot. Much bigger-

Jim Massey:

So much bigger.

Jennifer Brown:

... so much bigger, so much of a beloved community. So many things that we can believe in and have faith in, you know? And it's beautiful, and that you always wake up the next day. What a gift, what a privilege, right?

Jim Massey:

Right?

Jennifer Brown:

I mean, the world is in turmoil, and sometimes that isn't a guarantee obviously, looking at watching the news, and knowing what's happening in others countries, and natural disasters, and... But yeah, I feel very reminded and restored by that faith, that well, it's positivity, it's faith in humanity, faith in the goodness, faith in the kindness. And in body, in the people that we surround ourselves with too. So, plugging back into, I would add, who do you trust, and why, and what is the quality of that trust? And if you're in a workplace, you're feeling really pessimistic and cynical, focusing on, what do I believe in, who do I believe in? Oftentimes this is, as you know, this is often affinity groups, this is often reaching out to people who have shared your struggle on a visceral, physical, identity level.

And plugging in, and saying, "I'm having a hard time with the pessimism and the glass half empty today." Reminding ourselves of what trust looks like, and then going and creating more trust with others I think is another antidote to feeling that you're in sort of this environment that you can't tolerate. But no matter what, I think connecting back into trust is so restorative, like in and of itself, just letting yourself feeling it, reminding yourself of who you trust, talking about what it means, and why it was built, and how it was built. I trust you, Jim, because so many reasons, from the very first panel we were on too. But another lovely memory is, I brought you into a client with me where I had been warned that...

And sometimes this happens, warned that this is a really recalcitrant group, a really tricky, negative, cynical group, about my topic. So you get this information and you're like, "Okay, I'm basically being thrown into the deep end here." And I'm always up for a challenge through, because I actually really grow from these difficult audiences, because I have to figure out how to make an impact. Not easy, but we came up with the idea to invite you to join me. And even as, you could imagine that maybe that would have been funky because here I am, an expert, an author, somebody who is paid to be places so that people can learn from me. And yet, maybe I'm not enough, or maybe I'm just one messenger, maybe I need another messenger who might be heard differently.

And you just got it immediately, you joined me, and in the dialogue of us we reached people, and I trusted you to do that with me, and to be in that space with me, and to share that space with me, and to get our audience where we needed to get them, and handle all of that beautifully, seamlessly, respectfully. And knowing the right place for you to inhabit, and I think that, to me... What builds trust for me is every person knowing in the built system, where do you sit in that built system, and what are you doing to challenge that built system? And then if I know that somebody's doing that from their place in that built system, and they're so self-aware that they understand, "Here's exactly what I need to say right now, here's what I need to challenge, here's how I need to do that, here's when I need to do that.

"I see it laid out because I truly understand and have been paying attention to where I exist, and what helps me, and also what hurts me, and what I'm willing to fight for." And you are one of those people that understand those things, but you've been paying attention for a long time, so, you know?

Jim Massey:

Yes, yes, yep.

Jennifer Brown:

And you always point out, you give so much credit to the people that have poured into you, and have really furthered your learning, and you give them all the kudos for holding space for you to become. And that was an enormous amount of trust, to sort of be vulnerable to that and say, "Hey, I can't do this alone. I need you to grow." Imagine if we could say that to each other, "I need you to grow, and I need you to be successful. I need you to be alongside me, to be successful in this thing," and that's what I did in that meeting when I brought you in. And I didn't even worry about it once, but that's trust right?

Jim Massey:

Yes, yes.

Jennifer Brown:

Because that can go a million ways, and sideways.

Jim Massey:

It's a huge gift, and Jennifer, I think interestingly enough the biggest challenge I had with the book was the dedication and the epilogue. And it finally hit me, one of my favorite things, Ernest Hemingway, is quoted as saying as, "The way to trust someone is to trust them."

Jennifer Brown:

Wow.

Jim Massey:

It's pretty straightforward that way. And then I think for me, I want to come back to, you were talking about giving that trust. And something that is striking me, I want to read the dedication. And you know me, I show emotion. But this is at the core, so I dedicate this book to humanity, we are the problem, we can be the change. Earth, we're trying to cut through the BS and save you. You, yes you, the reader, trust yourself, it's time to act right now, be and do good. It's how I end all of my emails to anyone I communicate with, because I want everyone to be and do good. So that as we are focused on humanity and tomorrow, we are embracing the universe that connects us all.

Jennifer Brown:

That's right. Oh, there's no way we can be and do good without being mindful of what holds us up, and it is each other, it is absolutely that. Jim, that's beautiful, I am sure this book is just going to be eaten up, gobbled up, like rub it all over.

Jim Massey:

Well, for anyone that needs it, I hope it helps.

Jennifer Brown:

Anyone.

Jim Massey:

And Jennifer, I think the other thing that's important to remember, I love when you were talking about who do you trust? If today our conversation has inspired anyone, I hope that they're not connected... My guess is everyone's connected with you based on the world I know, but if I could be of assistance, part of this work is supporting one another. And like you said, so many have poured into me, I want to give back to the community that's shape-shifting the built systems for good. So reach out, let's connect, and I'll always be a part of this community as long as you'll keep having me, and I'm excited to be there.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh yes, you have a evergreen pass.

Jim Massey:

Oh, wonderful.

Jennifer Brown:

And what a wonderful offer, everybody, I hope you heard that. Jim, we'll make time, and can be a wonderful reassurance, I think you just reassure people that it's possible, and that leaders can go on a journey, and they can become what we need them to be, and that you are practicing what you preach, and continue to dive into your soul, and be real with us, and authentic in the world, and reassuring us that we're needed. It's very powerful, particularly now. So, thank you. Trust in Action is the book, everybody. Jim's on LinkedIn, they should be able to find you, Jim. Any other ways we can be a part of your world, keep track of what you're doing, listen to you speak, et cetera?

Jim Massey:

So it's all going to be coming out, I also have started a website, jimmassey.co.

Jennifer Brown:

Great.

Jim Massey:

So there'll be more information there on ways in which we can interact, and I think LinkedIn is my primary source. It's the one social media I still believe and trust in right now.

Jennifer Brown:

Speaking of trust.

Jim Massey:

Right, yes. And so that's where I'm pouring-

Jennifer Brown:

I agree with that.

Jim Massey:

... most of my energy.

Jennifer Brown:

And you're wonderful on LinkedIn.

Jim Massey:

Thank you.

Jennifer Brown:

So everybody, please at the very least read everything Jim writes on LinkedIn, because you have a beautiful... You just use the tool, I think, in a very skilled way that I admire. So yes, so thank you for joining me, best of luck with the book.

Jim Massey:

Thank you, Jennifer.

Jennifer Brown:

Happy to be on your team, and be an ally to you as you go, and thank you for your allyship to me. Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion, and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together, and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Speaker 3:

You've been listening to The Will to Change, uncovering true stories of diversity and inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.