The Power of Authentic Storytelling: Building Trust, Connection, and Belonging at Work with Jennifer, Shalynne Jackson, and Jim Massey

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Jennifer Brown:

Hello will-to-changers. It's Jennifer. And I sit with this question, why does it seem increasingly difficult to be in conversation with each other, and who's missing from these conversations as a result? We all know it's become more difficult than ever to practice the imperfect art of allyship, however we identify, because there are few spaces where we can return to the building blocks of inclusion, places where we can deepen our self-awareness. We can analyze how trust is built and unearth our story and practice both sharing and listening. As such, we are very excited to announce the very first Better Together Conference, a series of virtual conversations and workshops aimed to foster in learning connection, trust, and empathy, with the intent of articulating a vision for true partnership that includes and enlists all of us.

So whether you're looking to level up your allyship or aren't sure where you fit into the inclusion equation, this two-day event will enhance your competence and confidence to hold meaningful and authentic conversations that build bridges across differences. So I would love to see any and all of you joining us for the virtual two-day event. The date are October 18th and 19th, 2023, so it's just around the corner. You can learn more about the conference and secure your ticket at jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. That's jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. We hope you'll come back to the conversations that matter.

Shay:

It's not hard walking our truths, but it is risky because there's also this idea of professionalism, executive presence that you're supposed to carry. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't feel you're supposed to be vulnerable. It blew a few of my peers away and they did not know how to respond when I said my dad was murdered, in a staff meeting one day when we were talking about some shootings. Some of them, afterwards, were able to then share some similar stories. So there you go with the empathy, there you go with the, "Oh my gosh, me too." Traditionally, that wasn't the place to drop something like that, but it was, because we're talking about employees' lives, and I at least need you to know where my passion is coming from. This is problematic, that they're afraid to... that they won't make it home. And while fundamentally we all agreed, I think that our ideas of how you handled it was so different, and I needed them to understand why I was like, I don't know what the solution is, but we truly do need to figure it out.

Speaker 3:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, on to the episode.

Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Reta. Today's episode was originally recorded as a DEI community call, and features a conversation between Jennifer, Shaylyn Jackson, and Jim Massey as they discuss the power of vulnerable and authentic storytelling. And Jennifer, Shaylyn, and Jim talk about and share stories and insights and reveal how our unique identities and personal experiences can serve as the foundation for trust, empathy, and a true sense of belonging. I think you'll get a lot out of this episode. Stay tuned. And now, on to the conversation.

Jennifer Brown:

The reason Shay, Jim, and I really wanted to come on the community to call as a group today is that we did this incredible session at the National Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce Conference in Denver, about two weeks ago, and we had a standing-room-only room, and we went through some of the things that we're going to be talking about today, and we were sort of a panel of three sitting at the front and we talked specifically about sharing our diversity dimensions, particularly perhaps those that are invisible as well as those that are visible. And we flashed up the iceberg slide, and you all probably know this and I keep adding to this slide, but our storytelling originates I think by making a first choice about what carries stigma and what have I been reticent or silent about, that is true for me, that is challenging for me or that I'm proudest of, but that is not maybe overtly visible about me.

And what is the point of lowering this waterline? Indeed it is to sort of be that beacon, that role model, to show how it's done, to share how it sounds, and then to create more permission for people to do the same sort of walk in your footsteps. And so Shay and Jim, it was incredible to have you role modeling this, and we just stopped at this slide, and you both chose to share some things that you've developed skill around storytelling and the result of that and how it feels for you, and then what it changes in terms of the dynamic of trust around you. So I just wanted to pause there and invite either one of you to share, what has that process been like and what did you choose to share on that panel? How did it feel and what sort of reaction did you get?

Shay:

Jim, you always do that. I'm not going first this time.

Jennifer Brown:

And talk about that, talk about that.

Jim:

Well, it's through this community that I've learned that I don't need to speak. Shay and Jennifer are my allies, and they're my experts, and they often know everything. And so I often will wait and let them speak, and then if there's something missing, I'll add. And if not, we can go on. Jennifer taught me this phrase called decentering, and Shay is brilliant at... We joke, she kicks me out of the desk and says, "Uh-huh, pumpkin, it's time to fly. You talk," just like she did there. And so I want to be respectful and it's something that I didn't even realize, like now I'm overtalking. But that's something that this community has taught me, the importance of understanding the water I swim in on multiple dimensions, and being aware of it and trying to regulate it. And so I am comfortable having that conversation.

There were even times that we'll probably go in a little bit later, I had asked Denise shared something in chat, and I didn't see if I got permission to use it, but for me, I have a disability that is newly acquired. I had a surgical procedure where I have sight loss. I wasn't going to bring it up at the meeting, but I was called to. We'll go into that in just a little bit more. And that's the unseen piece that I had to experience, and it was remarkable to get it out. And Shay asked, "Will you bring that up?" I'm like, "Hey, it's out." Once things are out for me, I never put them back. So it was really refreshing. I'll stop there and I'll add more later.

Shay:

For me, there were multiple things, but I will share that I shared the story around my alopecia, and when I stopped wearing wigs on a Friday in the workplace, and I would like to ask, were there people that were there here on this call?

Rose:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:08:05].

Shay:

If you were, if maybe you could raise your... Do the reaction where you raise your hand or tell us in the chat. But yeah, at the conference I shared the impact that really telling my story and why I do this work. I want everyone to have what I call that Friday feeling, of when I was like, "I'm done with this," and I felt like this is when my career is going to be over, but really, my career soared because I no longer had to cover, and we all know the energy that goes into covering. But then I also shared that a new story that I tell, and it wasn't that I was ever afraid to tell it as much as I didn't really understand how it showed up in my work, is the murder of my father.

Now, because of the work that we do, there's some of our employees, I work for the city, so some of our employees are in very dangerous jobs. I used to feel like it was more so public safety. It was the firefighters and the police officers, but it's our trash operators too. They're showing up to homes to just do this service for people and they're having guns pulled out on them. It's our public works people that's risk being ran over by cars.

And so now I tell my story of my dad because I want employees to understand, I take that serious when you say that guns and knives are being pulled out on you, because my dad didn't make it home to us, but we want you to make it home to your family. And wow, I never knew the impact it would have. Now they're calling me and they're like, "We feel comfortable talking to you about this because you see us," and things like that. I just never really saw how my dad's murder played a role in the workplace as much as I do now.

Jennifer Brown:

So beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Shay. That's so moving. And it makes the point that I think over our lives, we deepen into our stories, and we get more courage. I hope that's the direction we go in. If you're not going in that direction, maybe you're in the wrong environment, maybe you're not getting the support you need. But ideally, as we dig and excavate, we discover more things, and then we look at them and we say, "Is this worth sharing? What is it going to do?" And what I heard Shay and you talking about, we don't know. We just don't know [inaudible 00:10:25] we predict, and we're often wrong about whether something matters or doesn't.

We're so concerned, I think, with our own risk or perceived risk of vulnerability that goes along with vulnerability that we make it that we don't make the right decision about it, and we don't give it the chance to do its work in the world, and draw people to us, and actually counterintuitively, trusting people with that thing that feels so risky to trust them with means that you're building more trust. So we humans, sometimes our logic doesn't make sense. We know this. This is one of those things that I think we really have to notice, the rabbit holes we go down about this stuff, and all the assumptions we're making about how small we are and how little we can affect things, and how we can predict when we can't predict. Truly, we cannot.

Shay:

I think it helps too because earlier in my career, when I got into DNI, employees that were clearly not very into DNI would say things like DNI is just about black people and things like that, because the people in the role, I'm black and my boss was queer, and they thought that's all the work was about, and that's all we cared about. And we were like, "That's not true. We're doing this for everyone." And so I feel like as they learn more about me, they see that I'm more than a black woman that's just trying to hire a bunch of black people is what the narrative is. And it's like one, what's wrong with hiring black people, but two, you don't know me. You have no idea.

I had people say, "City manager Craig Freeman has hired a bald liberal black woman to lead DNI and silence the white voice." I'm not bald by choice. This isn't a power statement. I have alopecia. But you didn't even Google my story. You didn't even ask me. You just made an assumption. And so I just wanted to share that it also helps people understand that yes, I'm here for black people, but I'm here for all people, even if it's not an identity that I identify with. I'm doing this work for everyone.

Jennifer Brown:

So beautiful. Jim, I know what you're going to say. Say it.

Jim:

No. Well, it happened to me at the conference, recently, when we're at the... I always get the acronym messed up, but it's the N...

Jennifer Brown:

GL-

Jim:

NGLCC, right? And I thought the big topic of the day would be around gender identity and LGBTQ topics. And I said, I get into this, when we were going through and Jennifer was facilitating, as she always does, and people were pouring their hearts out. I'm always like, "How does she get this from humans?" But it's that space. And I was checked, right? Shay, to your point, I thought I knew this audience and what they would be talking about, and every time we asked the question, "What do you want to learn more about?", it was about abilities. And then we asked another question, of all the dimensions, abilities kept coming up. And so the struggle, this community to which I wouldn't necessarily, traditionally, someone called me the token, identify with, we were all in the thick of it, learning the exact same topic at that same moment, and it all just flooded away.

And so Shay, I did that. I had my narrative of what my topic was going to be, and I'll never forget this moment, I kept pushing it back. Like, wow, man, everyone out there is reading my soul right now, and it was getting to me and it was really moving. And Jennifer's like, "Okay, who wants to talk?" And I was turning my head, because I had a tear rolling down my face, and Shay's like, Jim's got a tear. He wants to say something. Because she knows me, and that's the moment. But I think that's the most magical part for me is when we get out of the narratives we have in our heads, the connection and the oneness that I felt in probably the most diverse space I've ever been in across all intersectionalities, I've never felt more part of. It was remarkable.

Jennifer Brown:

Really remarkable. And so Shay, you and I were talking about an exchange between two audience members, two shares that were two sides of the coin in this beautiful way. Do you want to share what we heard and when we opened it up to the room?

Shay:

Yeah, I think obviously they shared that... One was sharing about how her son was recently diagnosed with autism. And what was neat was she was supposed to be the last speaker, but I was like, "No, can we please have one more?" And I don't know why, but I'm glad that we did that, because then the other lady was like, "I am on the spectrum, and your son will be okay." It was just so powerful seeing that exchange to say, "It's going to be okay." And she did share a little bit about what she does experience in the workplace, how people would be like, "No, you're not. No, no, no, you're not." And it's like, "Are you going to [inaudible 00:15:33] me?" Because she doesn't present as someone typically would or our understanding, our typical understanding of somebody on the spectrum.

I think that that is another thing that people are learning is like we have to believe people when they say something. You know what I mean? You don't fit my mold, so I'm going to tell you what you are. It's like, that's not how this works. But yeah, that was a beautiful exchange.

Jennifer Brown:

That "No, you can't be," I remember hearing that a lot about my own LGBTQ identity. "No way. What do you mean?" You hope people are more educated about things, but people are people. Anyway, so everybody, we'd love to hear any reflections that you'd like to share. We're going to use some hand raising with the reaction tab at the bottom. So if you'd like to come off mute, if you're feeling something right now, which based on the chat I'm sure you are, any questions for these beautiful leaders and humans or just something you'd like to share about your process of uncovering and sharing and the reaction and the surprises and the growth and the transformation, please feel free to raise your hand. And I think we do have one up.

Shay:

Rose.

Jennifer Brown:

Rose. Hi Rose.

Rose:

Hi y'all. This is my first time on the call, so I'm nervous to be sharing, but I really appreciated how y'all led with opening up about your own stories. What stood out to me, particularly in Shay, your story, just about sharing about alopecia and being a black woman and being all your different identities, but having other people telling a story of like, "Oh, this liberal black bald woman was hired, blah, blah, blah," I kind of put it in the chat, but it made me realize, I make up stories about other people all the time, as well as stories of why people do things. Like, "Oh, I don't think they really want to talk to me, and that's what...". Or I joke that I have an inner... I'm trans and I'm non-binary. I joke that I have a part in me that's my inner transphobe. It's like this older curmudgeonly part in me that just says, "You're not worthy because you're trans." And other people will be laughing on the other side of the room, and I'm like, "I think it's because I'm trans."

So I'm making up stories all the time. But what I thought about when y'all were sharing is I'm learning to tell my own story, and simultaneously let me be more curious about other people's story from their own mouths, or from their own experience, instead of filling in the blanks. And that's an ongoing practice of being like, "I wonder what your story is," and bringing curiosity to that. I guess that was the word that came up as I heard y'all sharing, was curiosity. Because I don't know what's underneath the iceberg. Everyone has stories. So let me be more curious.

Shay:

Thank you so much for sharing that, Rose.

Rose:

Thank you.

Shay:

And your nails are amazing, but thank you so much.

Speaker X:

[inaudible 00:18:44].

Jim:

I'm putting my hands down.

Shay:

I think if it's okay, tied to what you're saying, Rose, I love what you're sharing, and one thing that I was very inspired by early in my story was something dawned on me that all of the LGBTQ people in my life, and even the black men in my life, and well, black people, I'm sorry, I can tell the story of why I said that in a second. But it also dawned on me that alopecia is not going to kill me. One, because it's not a disease that will kill me, but I was looking at the people in my life whose life was on , and who were being killed because of their identity. And I was just like, I want to be able to own and embrace mine rather than those that have a target just because of who they love or their skin color or whatever that looks like.

I'm not minimizing my disease or wasn't minimizing that part of me, but just really it dawned on me that there are lives that, because of who they love, are being killed. Someone expressed to me, the reason why I say that, they were like, "I don't share my story because it literally puts my life at risk. You're talking your career may be at risk. My life may be at risk." And that just was huge.

Jennifer Brown:

That's perspective. And I might even dare I call it, if privileges were a spectrum, because it's not like you have it and don't, it's a spectrum of Jim, what you call the built system, the BS, the system, what the system rewards, what's okay in a system, what's accepted when you are an insider, when you're an outsider. So privilege, I think it floats, depending on which system we're in and which one we're talking about and referencing, and what's overt about us and what's covert about us too. So we're constantly navigating these different environments where our status changes, what we can say, what we have permission to do or to say. It's really interesting. It's not the pain Olympics, to quote Kenji Yoshino. I love that, and it's a good reminder, but at the same time, Shay, what I think you're saying is there's a perspective of, wait, let me put this in context.

And it's reminds me, Jim, when I work with leaders that look like you and they're like, "Oh, Jennifer, it's too risky to do what you're talking about. I just can't... I am not good at it. I don't know, it just feels scary." I'm like, "Let's talk about fear and let's talk about real risk, and who's really, really..." and Rose, thank you for sharing who you are.

Shay:

Thank you.

Jennifer Brown:

It's just sort of one of those teachable moments when I have to sit people down and say, "Let's really be honest about risk right now. What do you stand to lose?" And getting people over that hump of perceived risk versus what they could be doing that would not only transform them but also send ripple effects out that touch thousands of people, because often they're in positions of power, that's what they should be focusing on. But people get stuck in something they perceive, again, incorrectly. Again, back to that bizarre human logic that doesn't really look at the facts as they are. Jim, you want to say something?

Jim:

I'm thinking, Rose, thank you for speaking and sharing your story. And Jennifer, I actually think of Rose as the example of my growth with as an ally, because I was trained to believe an ally is someone within the BS, the built system that has the power, but my strongest allies are outside the built system saying "That's bad." You're in there playing, and you're part of the problem as long as you're in there. And so, Rose, part of the awakening that I heard in you is when you're looking at those people across the way that are laughing and you used to think, "Oh, they're laughing at me," it may be, "Hey, they're laughing. Maybe they have a sense of humor. That may be someone I can be an ally or an advocate to," because just hearing you, I'm inspired. I want you to know that it's amazing to see the authenticity of the leadership you bring. The journey I'm on is trying to expand what ally means, is just helping someone learn a different story so that they can grow a little bit more.

Jennifer Brown:

I love that. Allyship travels in a 360-degree way. It can be deployed and given and received in multiple directions, and indeed it needs to be. And the three of us talk all the time about how we exchange allyship, whatever the need is. And what I want most is for all of us to be as prepared as we can be to do that, to step in and either provide it or seek it. It's both directions, and it's so beautiful if you think about it that way, because then we strip out the seniority question, you strip out the white saviorism, that piece.

You strip out and you say, "Boy, I really need Shay and Jim, I just need both of you so much." And I hope you need me. What built system am I a part of that neither one of you is? Welcoming both of you into the LGBTQ+ room, that was just a special, special thing for me, such an honor that you would be there, such an honor that you could establish connection across difference in the way that you did. And it felt so deeply satisfying to me that you could be known by that community and that community could hold space for you both. It was just a beautiful thing.

And anyway, I know we have more hands up. Oh my goodness. Denise, let's come to you.

Denise:

Hello everyone. I'm not going on camera because my dog is sitting right next to me on the couch and he's a little over the top. At any rate, some of the things that have stood out for me that has been said is the reality of the impostor syndrome. We are always second guessing ourselves and feeling we are not worthy of having the opportunity to tell our stories. And Jennifer, you mentioned that privilege floats, and so does hope, and it's really important for us to remember that too, that when that imposter syndrome starts to squawk a little bit louder in our ear, that we have to remember, we have the right to be in the space that we are in, and to break down some of those built systems through the messaging that we can share.

That comes, as everybody has mentioned in the chat, with being more comfortable with yourself. And it does evolve as you maybe gain tenure within a company, become a leader where you're supposed to be that servant type of individual. And then also too, when you feel comfortable enough within the group that you have, as Jim mentioned, with allies there to support you. But boy is it hard if you don't feel that you have that right to speak, to feel comfortable in that space.

Shay:

I'm just really glad that you said that, Denise, because it is hard being an executive, and... I'm trying to make sense of it. It's not hard walking our truths, but it is risky, because there's also this idea of professionalism, executive presence that you're supposed to carry. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't feel you're supposed to be vulnerable. It blew a few of my peers away and they did not know how to respond when I said my dad was murdered, in a staff meeting one day when we were talking about some shootings. And some of them afterwards were able to then share some similar stories, and so there you go with the empathy, there you go with the, "Oh my gosh, me too," but also it was just like it traditionally... that wasn't the place to drop something like that, but it was, because we're talking about employees' lives, and I at least need you to know where my passion is coming from, because this is problematic that they're afraid that they won't make it home.

And while fundamentally we all agreed, I think that our ideas of how you handled it was so different, and I needed them to understand why I was like, "I don't know what the solution is, but we truly do need to figure it out quickly."

Jennifer Brown:

Hear, hear. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Denise. I wanted to show a slide on story structure, because a lot of what we've been talking about is how and when do we share it, and for what purpose, and how I understand it and how I worked on the talks I've given that are really short and I have to kind of really pack a punch. I have 10 minutes and I really want to take the audience on a journey from something that happened to me, which is the story, and what literally happened, what shifted as a result, which is that truth piece. So what did I take from it? How did it impact me? Why did it matter? But then that universal truth piece is really where I think sort of its next level. You put yourself in the shoes of the audience and say, what's the message in my story? What is meant to be taught or communicated? And what do I hope people see in it? Because they won't see literally maybe in the story, but metaphorically, they will see what's so powerful.

So for me, just to give it a quick example, you all probably know my story. I don't know if you do, but the thing I often share is I'm an opera singer, trained opera singer, and I lost my voice due to multiple surgeries, and I couldn't sing anymore. And I reinvented into this amazing field and work, and I'm so happy that I get to be on the stage still and perform in a way, but in a different domain. All of this happened, and I tell the story of it that it was lost. So my story was, I'm a vocalist, I'm an artist that was silenced.

The truth is that I was not actually on the right road in the way that I was using my voice. That was not what I was meant to do, actually. But I wouldn't have had the courage to redirect my life. I would never have had the courage to say, "I'm walking away." And sometimes life forces us to walk away, and abandon something that we thought was everything to us. But then we realize, wait, there's something else happening and I need to follow where that's leading me. And the universal truth, I thought to myself, "Well, for me, the truth was I was meant to use my voice just not as a singer, but to give voice to others, to give voice to what's not voiced."

And the universal truth then that I want to leave audiences with is the challenge to them to say, "How are you not taking your voice for granted? How are you giving voice to what's not voiced? How are you lifting up your voice as much as you possibly can, not knowing whether or who is ever going to need to hear you doing that and trusting and having faith that you need to do it over and over and over again?"

And the universal truth kind of emerges over time. I have found as a storyteller that everybody has an interpretation of your story that is completely unexpected. This is one of those things that you just can't predict, which is part of the beauty, the beauty of telling it over and over, because the audience gives you something new, gives you something that you can carry with you. Every subsequent time you tell it, you'll remember what difference it made, how that universal truth really stuck with somebody, and how it moved them or it shifted something in them. And as we do this and as we hear the reaction, we get stronger, we get more confident, we begin to build the competency, we begin to understand what our story means to others. I think that's a long iterative process, but it's been incredible.

For a story that I never really wanted to share about losing my voice, and a story that I wasn't sure I could ever not be emotional about telling, it's become like a best friend. It's become a tool that I know well, and I know it well because I know how much the idea of losing your voice means to so many people that I care about and I love and who needs support.

So anyway, it was just amazing to see how that all transpired for me in my personal life. And I hope it's helpful for all of you. While we're on this, let's go to the next slide. This was just recapping some of the things we taught in the workshop, but if it's helpful to you all, we sort of broke up the ingredient that you start with into marginalized identities, stigmatized identities, things that are just uncomfortable, and some thought starters on the left side. And then we also did this on the right side for privilege, because I think equally, as we welcome more people into this conversation, what we don't want folks to say is, "I'm so privileged, I have nothing to add. I have nothing to say. I don't know how to contribute. I don't want to take space from others." Jim, I'm looking at you.

And so every time I teach these days, I try to really be very overt and lean into this, because I really want to encourage and make space for and demystify and deweaponize and take the temperature down on privilege, because simply put, it's just where I have been able to benefit from systems where I've been safer, where I've been more welcomed, where I've been listened to, where I've been heard, where I've been respected. That's what it means. And in this body, and with the background and the education, whatever I have or don't have, that's what it means. And so from there though, I believe that storytelling can happen from that place.

And Jim, I've seen you do it. I know it's real. I know it can be done. And I'm sure it took a lot of courage for you to stand up and sort of admit and name the thing that we think we see when we see you, which is not the whole story, of course, but you have begun to get much more comfortable speaking it. I've seen you grow, and I know that's giving permission to people to say, "Well, okay, that's not so scary, because I know what the purpose is. I know what his goal is in doing this, and I can tell he's so authentic in how he's putting these principles into practice." What you have been given, you're turning around and using it, and that's what you talk about, which I think is just like we need a lot more of that. Is that all accurate?

Jim:

Hopefully. Right?

Jennifer Brown:

Right. Not perfect, not perfect, but...

Shay:

Jennifer, at one point, two other people had their hand up. I can't remember the other, but I think it's... And please correct me if it's Shaban? Is that how you pronounce it?

Shaban:

Yes, you did. It was perfect. I was just going to share a weird story about how, because I have an invisible disability, I learned seven years ago when it was diagnosed that because people don't find it real or one of the top disabilities that they're used to, that they don't give me the level of empathy or respect that other people with disabilities have. So I just don't even bring it up anywhere I work. I'm in HR and I usually have DEI responsibilities, and if not for COVID, it would've been a secret at my last company, but because of COVID, I had to ask for ADA accommodations, and my employer battled with my doctor for a year not taking my disability, my invisible disability seriously. So now when I'm interviewing for other DEI and HR roles, even if it's a company that advocates for people with disabilities, I don't feel safe telling them I have a disability because if they don't find my disability major enough or serious enough, or if they don't understand it, I feel it might backfire. So I'm in a weird place right now.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you for sharing.

Shay:

Thank you for sharing. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. We do a training here at the city called the American Dream Experience, and we cover that with our leaders, around whenever it's invisible, we often don't believe an employee or we say, "Here they go taking off again" or "Here they go." But if it was a visible disability, it would be easier, oftentimes, for someone, a leader, to support someone needing to go to a doctor's appointment or even not being able to get to the third floor for a meeting if the elevator's broken. You find empathy in those moments. And so I appreciate that. That's one lesson we're teaching our leaders of believe people when they say something.

Jim:

I was just going to share, my wife has long COVID, and that's one of those things that everyone has an opinion on. Like, "Well just sleep a little bit more." It's made up. For her, she actually is unable to work. She's a broadcast journalist, and her main symptoms are fatigue and brain fog. And so I joke with her in our space that I'm glad she's now operating at my speed, so I can keep up, because she's brilliant. But it doesn't matter to her. She feels as if she's operating at 20% mentally. And like I said, she just helped my kids and I write a book, so she's doing brilliantly, but we are suffering, because people don't recognize it, and it's not a disability that we can get assistance for or help with. And so it's trying to find that community. And so if there's anything that we can provide support with you, please feel free to reach out. We're on maybe a completely different journey, but we're trying to find community, because we need it. It's a personal struggle that's really hard. And I'm sorry you're going through that.

Shay:

We have another hand. Louis.

Louis:

Hi. Yeah, both Jim and Shaban made wonderful points about a hidden [inaudible 00:37:39]. Because if I share only that I had a Whitewater River accident and got crushed by a falling tree and it created brain injury that took three years of recovery, and if I just share, I survived under the ventilator in the first 2020 COVID virus and barely survived, and have minor post-COVID things, long COVID, if I just say that, then all too often I might get empathy, but they might think that there's a disability, when actually it's an amazing story. Two of them, those are two of my near death experiences, the learnings from which are even greater than the cost. So, sometimes, I'm now discovering why even mention it, because the learnings have created a consciousness and an empathy and the valuing of things other people have gone through, [inaudible 00:38:40] the learnings they get. So in a way, I'm better off because of it.

I asked a best friend once after I came back from three years of brain injury recovery. "Wow. Do you notice any difference?" And those best friends who love us the way we are, one of them said, "Yeah, I noticed the difference, Louis, I love you even more. You're better now." So there's a right time and a wrong time to mention whatever [inaudible 00:39:12] unseen disability is. As long as we've learned to live with it and benefit from it with our own consciousness, that's [inaudible 00:39:20] we value one another because of it.

Jennifer Brown:

That's so beautiful. Louis. It reminds me, I used to teach an LGBTQ leader program years ago at Wells Fargo, and we'd get in the room and I would say, "When you feel proud of your identity as a part of this community, what is it about? What do you have because of the struggle? What have you learned? What have you forged? What have you developed? What are you proudest of as an LGBTQ-identified leader? What is it about how you lead that you think is informed by the life journey towards authenticity that you have?" And we would come up with this giant list in front of the room, and people would say, "I've never thought about it that way. I've never..." We ended up calling it the gifts, the gifts-

Louis:

[inaudible 00:40:16].

Jennifer Brown:

... exercise, and how beautiful. It's funny. I totally with you, and I also know that even if my sense of being a stronger self is because of my identities that I've had to figure out and struggle with and be overt about and public about, then I also though have the separate part of me that knows that every time I stand up, I need to come out. Every time I'm in front of a room, every time...

And so I think it feels like it's a different goal, because I am so good, because I've processed my identity in so many ways and feel... I celebrate it. I am thankful, thankful that I came out and discovered my life's work through it. What a gift. And I never would've known it was even here if I hadn't decided to love the person that I love and follow my heart.

But I also know that me as a role model is a different equation that I... different math that I do, which is... Now my job is to shine light for others. And I'm not so in it anymore. It's sort of speaking from the scar and not the wound. I love that the way to think about stories and the way to think about grief and the way to think about how fresh something is when we're... I don't know if we're so able to... It's just different. It's more raw, it's more emotional. But the further distance we get from things and the more aligned and integrated it is into us, it becomes part of our teaching and witnessing. It becomes a strength.

Can you imagine, when you come out, having thought through what it is that you're so grateful for in this community. What are you proudest of? What have you gotten from it that you didn't expect? How has it transformed and changed the direction of your life? Imagine if we all told our stories like that. Jim, you said in our session, Shay, help me out. What was that beautiful thing that Jim said? "I might have lost-"

Shay:

Everything.

Jennifer Brown:

I know. You said "I might've lost my sight, but I didn't lose my vision"? Was that it?

Shay:

Was, it didn't lose it, or did you gain...

Jim:

Yeah, I may have lost some sight, but I refuse to lose my vision of what I want.

Jennifer Brown:

Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what Louis, what you're saying, just the gratitude for the curve balls of life, and making it okay to talk about them, but not having it be so heavy, but considering it from a place of illumination.

Louis:

Yes. In fact, you made another wonderful point, Jennifer, about privilege. I so appreciate it, because you're right, we all are in the bodies we're in in this lifetime. And so I'm a straight white male yuppie WASP with privilege, and therefore I've spent 40 years using my privilege to serve. There is a way to just use it to serve, to enhance, to make equal, and it's just a gift to be able to finally learn how to get out of the track of privilege and just use it among others to serve. So, thanks for making that point.

Shay:

Louis. Thank you for sharing that. I often share, privilege isn't bad. We've weaponized it. We've acted like it's this horrible thing. But to your point, it's you have power. How are you using your power? How are you allowing other people to leverage that power? How are you pulling other people along, saying other people's names in rooms that they're not even allowed in right now? And so I love how you're like, "I've used mine to serve." I think it's an honor when you use it the right way to have privilege to be able to help other people. But right now, no one wants to be called privileged.

Louis:

Everything we're aware of, consciousness of technology, natural... everything, including each one of us can be used either for good or evil. It is that simple. So whatever we are are the gifts with which we can serve.

Jennifer Brown:

Beautiful.

Shay:

Okay. We have two hands up.

Jennifer Brown:

We do. Is it Jose? Is it... Are you here? I'm squealing with delight.

Speaker 9:

Hey Jennifer.

Jennifer Brown:

Hello.

Speaker 9:

It was so nice to finally meet you in person this year. Jennifer and I were both speaking at the same conference in Minnesota.

Jennifer Brown:

The forum.

Shay:

Oh yeah I [inaudible 00:45:22]. Yeah.

Speaker 9:

For those of you with whom I haven't connected with in the community, I'll just mention that I have a stutter. And as I often like to say, your internet is working just fine. I could really relate to the entire conversation when Shay talked about alopecia and the wig, it reminded me of how, for me, the wig was silence and avoiding speaking, and then taking off that the metaphorical wig in my case was openly speaking, even if it meant having to face that fear of judgment for being different. So I really love hearing about that journey. It was super powerful.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you. So the metaphorical wig. Ooh, that's a universal truth, Shay.

Shay:

It is.

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:47:05].

Shay:

Thank you. It's Jose?

Speaker 9:

Yeah, Jose, yes.

Shay:

Thank you so much for sharing that.

Jennifer Brown:

That is beautiful. What is your wig?

Speaker 9:

Do a TED talk.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, for real.

Speaker 9:

[inaudible 00:47:19].

Jennifer Brown:

I see that. I see that. Yeah.

Jim:

Absolutely.

Shay:

We always leave these calls or these meetings with taglines. I remember your call with Joe Garsen. I was like, "You need to find your own Joe." We were like, "Find a Joe."

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:47:35] Rose.

Shay:

Rose has a question or a comment.

Jennifer Brown:

Rose.

Rose:

Just want to make sure it's okay with the group agreements to double dip. Is that all right?

Shay:

Go ahead. You raised your hand. Good for you.

Rose:

Okay. Okay. Well, just between what Jose just shared about the metaphorical wig or what are we masking with, to use the term in the neurodivergent... like masking, and also what Louis shared earlier of almost like what is the point of sharing the details of the story, whether it's an accident or trauma that happened, especially I find that around trauma, I'm kind of like, "I don't want a trauma dump. I don't want to go into details of something that could bring up a lot of pain for other people when they don't want to go there." But something that came up for me is I've been in recovery from all sorts of things for five years now. And in the 12-step world, when we're telling a story, we like to say, "Tell us what it used to be like, what happened, and what it's like now, so that people can relate."

And what it used to be like is really not for people who are in a great place or can't relate, but for people who are going through it, to feel that sense of relation. Like what Louis, what you shared. I imagine for someone who just went through a horrific, COVID-related or not, medical experience, might really want to know the specificity of that story in the pain, in the wound. But I love that scar, not the wound. Meaning if it's still a wound, then it's difficult for me to tell what it's like now. And I kind of joke, if I want to share an area of my life where it's like it used to be messy, but my life is still really a mess in that area, it's hard for me to speak to it and offer, be of service in that, or to serve others from it because I'm still needing support in that area.

So I guess it's a little bit of a couple thoughts, but the biggest thing that came was just, yeah, where can I speak from a place of what it used to be like, and giving enough details so that people can trust me and be like, "Oh, she gets it. She's been there." There's credibility to that. But not staying stuck in all the details, because then story can also sometimes be distracting. If it's too many details, then we could lose people who are like, "Oh, well that's not me. I'm not trans, or I don't have alopecia, or I didn't go through near death experience with COVID, so it's not me."

I guess it's a balancing act. And I'm just really enjoying this conversation. I had to say, I feel like this is my group of people. I'm really enjoying this.

Jennifer Brown:

It is.

Rose:

So thank you for having me.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you. So good.

Shay:

I do appreciate you sharing that. I appreciate all of y'all. I feel like after every comment I'm like, "Thank you," and it's really genuine, first of all, that you feel safe to do this on this call, but I'm over here growing and just taking all the nuggets too.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, how beautiful. We have literally two minutes left. I just want to remind everybody that particularly the second day of the Better Together Conference is precisely what we've been doing, literally. So I just want to remind you, I didn't plan it that way, but I think it's what everybody needs, especially the people that come to this conference. So really consider this to get more of this, to meet more people who are endeavoring to do the same thing as we've been trying to do here today. I'd love to see you all.

But Shay and Jim, thank you as ever. You're lights in my life, and I know lights for so many other people, and I work to amplify both of you in whatever way I can. And everybody on this call, stay in touch with us, make sure you're on our mailing list, because we're going to be supporting this kind of process and this kind of work more and more in the coming months.

Just as a closing thought, companies are going through what they're going through. Employers are... It's been a hard year to watch that support waiver, particularly for the LGBTQ community, but other communities as well. But what we can, I think, come back to is the beauty of what was shared on a call like this, and what we bring and how transformative we are, in whatever pot we're planted in. And I know a lot of you are going through a lot of change right now, and yes, you will receive the replay and the chat from this, but I just want to say, I know we're all going through a lot of change and sort of deep questioning right now, and know that you're not alone in doing that, and know that this iteration of you, there may be an ending and a beginning happening right now.

Our job, I think, is to witness it, to honor its coming, to honor transitions, to stay open, to be listening for the... I didn't want to hear that message about not singing anymore, but it was the message that I needed, and the message I needed to hear, and the opening that I needed to have to pursue and figure out how am I going to evolve through this. And if you're in a time of evolution, there is something emerging that you may not see at the moment, and it's so beautiful and it is the next version of you.

Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website, over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion, and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together, and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Speaker 3:

You've been listening to The Will to Change, Uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.