The Legacy of Belonging: Jennifer Joins the BE the CHANGE Podcast

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Stephanie:

I live in Canada, a very small place in Canada, 500,000 people, Newfoundland and Labrador. And you're in the US. Of course we have different laws and laws are changing so much, it's kind of worrisome when we look across the world how laws have changed. And I guess some of the, I guess, negatives and the impact is having on, I guess, a part of the, I call it, the 2SLGTBQIA+ community that we're part of. It's truly... I don't know. I don't even know how to call it. It's just every day you kind of feel that pressure of when are things [inaudible 00:00:31] change within the system. I'm very thankful to live in Canada so that we have so many different protections here. Not to say that they won't go away at some point, but I certainly hope they don't. But I guess, living in the States, being a part of minority of the LGBTQ+ community, what does that feel like? Because there's so many different states that are, I guess, passing laws against trans and against other folks that are the community part of.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. It's really tough right now, and we don't know where this is going. And we have a big election coming up next year, obviously. And I guess I've always put so much faith in, maybe foolishly, in brands and employers because they're very powerful in the equation. They can take their money and move out of a state and say, we're not doing business here anymore. We're not doing business with you. But I think that that commitment has been really uneven. And it was uneven... We saw that unevenness after George Floyd's murder for example. We saw that kind of performative allyship and then the stepping in and then the stepping back. But we also saw companies who've been doing this work for years and decades, in some cases for some of my clients, and it hasn't changed. And the commitment is redoubled. Right? And is committed. So, it's been all over the map.

I think that... What do we focus on? Do we focus on wringing our hands and saying the sky is falling about the brands that really don't have our back, maybe didn't ever have our back? I don't know. It's hard to consider that and kind of see that and wonder... Look, people come and go that lead these initiatives internally. So, companies have an uneven leadership on this. You get a new CEO and all of a sudden you have more or less support for a lot of these things, and it can change overnight. You have mergers and acquisitions that change things overnight. You can go from being a beloved brand of the LGBTQ+ community like into the dumpster. And vice versa, you could rise from those ashes and become an incredible brand out of nowhere that has this commitment and is kind of climbing and crescendoing and still kind of moving forward and evolving in a very proactive way.

So, I guess I think about it and I try to focus on the positive commitments that are continuing and the leaders that continue to say, "I don't care what's going on. We have our own intrinsic commitment and here are the things that we're going to continue to do." And there are plenty of those because... You know why? It's just a business decision too. I mean, we can hope it's a moral decision, but honestly, with the demographic changes and the buying power, and where the dollar and the currency sits, who's making those decisions, the younger generations ascending and making more of those decisions means that there's more accountability amongst that generation for walk [inaudible 00:03:30] responsible, not just DEI practices, but also ESG, and footprint, and sustainability around the world.

So, we have this tidal wave of generational change that's happening, but unfortunately or fortunately, those of us who are in the weeds with leaders today are still kind of battling it out hand to hand around resistance and skepticism and scarcity on the part of leaders who still are before now thinking, "There's going to be less for me if I participate in this." And now, it's sort of being said out loud.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

Right? And so, we're in this time where we've got, I think, got to make some space for that resistance because anybody who studies change knows that if you deny resistance and you tell it to shut up, it just goes somewhere else. It just changes its shape and comes back through a window.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

So, I think we've got to really think about how are we being inclusive of more viewpoints at this moment so that we can get more people on board, hopefully. But the way that we do that, I think we've got to change up our strategy it's not enough anymore to deny or to ignore, because that's just going to make things louder and more difficult and it's going to kind of drag our efforts back and drag them down and slow them down. It's like quicksand. It's molasses. It's sort of pulling on that forward momentum.

And so, I think we've got to go back and figure out how will we engage the skeptics and the doubters and the resistors and those folks who are angry or afraid or I will say it's in scarcity because honestly, if you turn it around and you look at the abundance, that's also inherent in this moment, the abundance that's available to leaders to say, "I could be an even better leader. If I engage with this, I will transform. I will grow. I will evolve. Rather than looking at it as a zero-sum, it's a one plus one equals four moment for the humans in our organization." But if many people don't see it that way, then I think we have to think about how are we really presenting this and do it a different way.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Because it's not a piece of pie. It's not a pie if we only get eight pieces out of a piece of pie, and I think it's looked at that way, we don't have enough pie to go around.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie:

That's kind of the way I look at it, and not the way I look at it, but the way a lot of leaders look at it when we have that conversation, that resistance of, "But what happens to me?" It's just... Nothing's going to happen to you. You're actually going to become better. You're going to look at your leadership. You're going to actually start transcending what you're doing within your organization and company. It's that interesting of I'm going to be forced out if others are going to come in that are different than me is that sort of a mentality unfortunately, sometimes.

Jennifer Brown:

And business has trained people to think about zero-sum. I mean, think about the way everything operates in capitalism. The pie is finite.

Stephanie:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

And I just think this is one of those things that doesn't operate in that way, but that's very hard to explain, and it's even harder to get people to believe in it. Humans are not a spreadsheet. They're just not.

But I think that it's a great calculated, not even a risk. I'll say it's a risk, calculated risk, smart risk to take to say, "I need to change. If I don't change, what is the risk?" That's the greater risk. The greater risk is obsolescence. So, that's, I think, a really fascinating way to look at it is if I don't evolve, where am I putting myself at risk? But nobody's having that conversation. The conversation they're having is, "Oh, I'm at risk of losing what I have and kind of clinging to or protecting or hoarding." And capitalism tells us to do that, unfortunately.

So, I think we're having sort of multiple conversations at once about our very system and the nature of how people have been rewarded in the past and nature of how we've looked at resources as in our organizations. And so, what we're asking for is really a more human-centered investigation of who does their best work, where and how do they need to feel, and how can you help people feel? And then, how do you feel? And how can you thrive? And it's such a juicy little thing we can get into with that. And that's a whole different question.

Who could disagree with belonging? When you literally want retention, when you literally, your lifeblood is people and their ideas, how could you possibly look at the question of belonging and say, "It's political," or "We can't go there," or "There's not enough to go around." There is an infinite amount of belonging that's available to us to create infinite. And I think I just put more stock in humans and our ability to create that both for ourselves or for others than a lot of people do. So, it's a pretty big change we're talking about, but it's really exciting.

Stephanie:

It is. And it's free, but belonging is free.

Jennifer Brown:

I know! It's-

Stephanie:

Technically, it's free. It doesn't cost. But I guess the other equation is you just talked about... I talk about it as a leaky boat coming from where I'm from, fishing. So, it's your leaking boat. You're leaking resources. If people don't feel that they belong within your organization, they'll go somewhere else where they feel that they belong. Right?

Jennifer Brown:

Right.

Stephanie:

That piece of it. So, it's getting to the next point about inclusive leaders. So, there's a difference between obviously leadership and inclusive leaders. The inclusive leaders are quite different.

Jennifer Brown:

They are. I feel like-

Stephanie:

Right?

Jennifer Brown:

... I meet them sometimes and I have glimpses.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

And then, there's sort of quasi-inclusive leaders. There's people who are on the journey because it's not ever done. It's sort of a lifetime commitment. It's sort of like-

Stephanie:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

... Eating healthy and managing your weight or your calories or your exercise, whatever. You stop doing that, and it's... And so, it needs to be nurtured. It needs to be practiced, it needs to be a discipline. Sometimes it's uncomfortable, particularly at the beginning, I think, when you're developing any new habit, it's a change and you view it as sort of sacrifice. Right? Until you start to realize how beneficial it's and how good you feel.

So, I think it's pretty hard to get the cold engine warmed up. Right? And get the juices flowing on the change. But after a while, I think you begin to understand "What is it? What does it look like? What does it sound like? This isn't so bad. Oh, I'm getting a different result. Oh, I'm able to build more trust. Oh, I feel more, I hope I feel more seen as a leader that's trying to evolve."

I think that feels incredible to get acknowledged for your efforts, but also to be given space by people around you to mess up, to be learning, to be a work in progress. And by the way, that has to be there. I think this is such a team effort. But I think leaders don't get started at all because they're afraid of how it's going to be received. So, a lot of people are stuck there and not, and frozen, unwilling to sort of leap into this new stuff imperfectly and to have that be received critically. And I think a lot of us have to kind of ask ourselves, "Well, how have we made it so scary for people? How have we... What has happened to..."

I want to go back to the core, the root of that. Let's go upstream from that. Because what we're looking at now is the result of somehow how this whole thing was set up. And I think we made some miscalculations along the way sitting here in 2023 that somehow resulted in people feeling, "I can't move because it's going to be criticized. It's not going to be enough. It's going to be not only not appreciated, but it's going to hurt me. If I try to learn, it's going to hurt me." That is a non-starter. So...

And I think it took probably all of us to contribute to where we find ourselves. But that's how I would characterize this moment. That's not good for any of us because all the people, unfortunately, with a lot of the power, which I don't have, you don't have, a lot of those of us who've been promoting change, we don't tend to be high on the organizational hierarchy. So, the problem with others who do have more seniority and therefore more influence, if those folks are frozen in place, we're not going to be able to get very far.

And we're certainly going to have to spend 10 times as much energy getting to where we need to go because it's like we're grinding the gears, but it's not moving us forward. We need to be pulled forward and we need to be pulled forward on National Allyship Day. We need to be pulled forward by activated allies who really see the opportunity. And there's a cooperation and a sort of going together energy to it. But right now it feels more and more polarized and in the binary and in the opposition, which is really, really unfortunate. So, more people living in the middle I think is what we need.

Stephanie:

How do we get there? I guess that's the thing. How do we get to that point? Because I find it's kind of messy work. It's not linear. It's... And I always say to folks, you're not going to always do everything right. You're going to learn and unlearn. We're going to look at unconscious bias and have very uncomfortable conversations. And just that thought for people, it's just like "Uh-huh. I don't want to be uncomfortable-"

Jennifer Brown:

No-fly zone.

Stephanie:

... "I'm doing good. Right? We're doing good." It's that mentality of "We're doing good, so what do we need to do more?"

Jennifer Brown:

That is a big obstacle that you're bringing up, particularly with businesses who are thriving. It's sort of why if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's, "Oh, this is working now." I know. And it's really hard to... I mean, I would say if a leader is not looking to the future though on a regular basis, you're not really a good leader. You should be questioning everything you do today, especially with AI, especially with the changes that are happening, and the instability, and the global economy, and how and why talent is moving or not coming back to office, or all of that. It feels very out of control.

So, I would say to leaders, and I do say to quote, Marshall Goldsmith, "What got you here won't get you there." At any age, you have to acknowledge that change is happening in this incredibly unpredictable, turbulent way. So, if you're leading in the same way that you've always led, I would be very worried for you. So, for you, what you just said is so fascinating because we do hear leaders that say, "I'm good and I know how to do this." And maybe you've been promoted, promoted, promoted, and you've been acknowledged and rewarded, and you feel like you're this good leader. You have this skillset and this competency that you can count on, and I'm about to come through and kick the legs out from under your stool and say, "Which by the way, you don't."

And whatever has worked will probably need to be changed and probably needs to be changed now. You don't even know what you're missing now actually, because you're working from an old playbook, an old script, or leaning on certain things that have worked or reinforcing the behaviors that have been rewarded, which by the way, organizations are really struggling to morph what they hold leaders accountable for as well. They don't really know what the future looks like. And so, how do you sit there...

I did some leadership competency work. How do you reward and incentivize and train leaders on the future skillset, the future competencies that they're going to need? And how do you communicate that, "Hey, this is where we're going to need you to be?" And how then do we nurture those leaders out of what's comfortable into what's uncomfortable so that they can begin to develop new competency or sort of de-emphasize, I would say the command and control style of leadership and move into extremely agile, flexible, resonant leadership, transparent leadership, emotionally intelligent leadership, all the things that I would put in the inclusive leadership bucket?

All of that is going to come to the fore. So, you said, "What is the urgency here when things seem stable, and I don't want to change myself, I don't want to change the system?" It takes a lot of courage to live into the future, to live in that future sort of skate to where the puck is going to be. That that's a Wayne Gretzky quote. Right? I mean, look at me.

Stephanie:

A hundred percent.

Jennifer Brown:

Look at me using a sports analogy.

Stephanie:

I love it.

Jennifer Brown:

You love a Canadian.

Stephanie:

I do. I do.

Jennifer Brown:

That's the logic. Right? And so, I don't know. If somebody says, "Hey, I'm good. I've got what I need," I'd be extremely skeptical. I'd say, "I wouldn't be so sure. Let me quiz you on... Let me ask you 10 questions about, for example, Gen Z who's coming into the workplace. And you're probably not going to get any of them right." And that's our future workforce.

So, you're not going to be leading anybody if they can't relate to you, if they don't trust you, if they don't want to follow what you're building, what you're saying, if they don't resonate with your values and who you are and not just what you do. If you don't have a plan for that, and then I don't know. I mean, I worry. I worry for you. So, that's kind of my answer. And it's a little fear-based, but I think it's also fear and opportunity. Change is the only constant. And I'm hoping leaders feel that fire under them because they should.

Stephanie:

You're right, because the conversation I have a lot is, "So, what are you doing for..." I say we have 30 years of education and change to look at within our current organizations. And what are you doing for the newer folks coming into your organizations, the Gen Zs and the younger folks? They expect a certain level of behavior. They expect to have policies that are inclusive, diverse. They expect to feel that sense of belonging because our school systems are saying, "Hey, you're fantastic. You're wonderful." And then, we get to workplaces and they're very regimented on the way that things go. So, how do we open up organizations to say, "We need to do better than what we're doing. All of us inclusively, the collective we need to do better."

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. What you bring up, particularly for the LGBTQ community, I don't have statistics on this around going back in the closet when you started a new job, but I know it's happening. And I know just in 2019, nearly half of us were still closeted in our workplaces.

And I don't know if the virtual hybrid working has made it easier or harder. I think it probably depends on the person, probably mixed. But it's been great for some people. It's actually felt a lot more psychologically safe than being in a physical office, which I think is really fascinating to dig into because that then tells me, "Hmm. The office was not a comfortable place for a lot of us, and not just LGBTQ people, but anybody who expresses their gender differently, anybody who speaks differently, certainly our black and brown colleagues, certainly even women." I mean, my pronouns are she/her. As a cisgender woman, I was aware of the data around how certain underrepresented demographics have felt in the office vibe, if you will. And it really has been, for some of us, a really toxic place.

So, anyway, yeah, I just think it's fascinating to think about what could be possible to bring this next generation to the fore and really think about what would keep them, what would enable the thriving from day one. Because I think if you go back in the closet, in all the ways that that can mean... Right? We can go in the closet about our cultural identity, our nationality, our accent, our a lot of things.

It's a hiccup in our relationship that should be growing, that should be getting set on a positive foot and progressing and accelerating. And yet, now you're doubting your psychological safety. You're doubting... You look upwards, and you don't see anyone that looks like you. You aren't hearing anybody speak about things that are important to you. It's sort of the absence of. It's the silence around things too, particularly things that are happening in our world. The silence of companies too. It's not just the reversal of certain policies, which is super hurtful and dispiriting that we've seen some brands do, but it's also just with the companies and employers who are nowhere on this.

And then, there's some that are just starting, which is so exciting, and we get to consult to those and work with those. And I love those clients honestly, where there's a galvanized C-suite executive, usually a CEO. There's a small team, small and growing DNI team. There's maybe early stage affinity groups. There's maybe a council that's starting to convene of leaders in the company that are saying, "Hey, we're going to sponsor this initiative."

When you meet a company that's just beginning and beginning to rev that engine up, it's a very exciting time. So, I always want to kind of acknowledge that there are companies right now who are starting their journey that actually can benefit from a lot of the wisdom of companies that have gone before them and institutions and all those best and next practices. And I just enjoy that a lot actually. It's way more fun for me than the more mature organizations that are grappling with some pretty tough stuff and have very, very mature efforts. They don't need us as much because they have all their PhDs and all their expertise, but I do love that 101 but excited, curious, want to learn, open, ready to invest. That is the best. I mean, that is just... You can go so many ways with that, and it feels really wonderful to be in partnership with a building effort.

Stephanie:

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I love those efforts that I, and small clients that I have that are building from the ground up.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah.

Stephanie:

A lot of tech companies, a lot of smaller companies are just saying, "Hey, we need to do more. We need to do better, and let's start. Let's do some learnings and some policies and just do things that matter." Not they're putting the flag up for June month, or July month here, take it down again. Just really doing great efforts. Not always that flash in the pan you're putting on LinkedIn or Facebook, but you're actually doing the work. Right? You're truly doing the work. You're sponsoring. You're mentoring. You're looking at your historically skewed communities. Some thoughts around what are some conversations that we probably should be engaging in that maybe we're not?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. Well, if we believe which we should, that this should be an expansive conversation about diversity dimensions and that so many of us are in our infancy as students of different identities that haven't really been focused on. So, I would say mental health obviously comes back to me constantly when I'm speaking. When I poll my audiences in any industry, any room, any virtual or in-person room, mental health comes back to me as the number one thing that people are finding to be extremely stigmatized and not resourced. And it cuts across so many different identities. All different identities. So, it's intersectional, but what's interesting about it is it's intersectional also in that different identity groups and cultural communities look at it so differently. And the stigma varies depending on what culture you're in too and what age group you're in. Who will talk about it openly? Who won't? Even in the LGBTQ community. Right?

I think we're grappling with that crisis, but it's experienced differently depending on the body that we're born into and the identities that we're born into. So, that makes it really fascinating. And I think if we could move forward on that quickly, because the need is there and it's really an emergency, but it's not a very visible emergency because of the stigma. And workplaces need to, I think really, really, really lean into that hard and de-stigmatize that quickly. And that means manager training. It means leading with the EAP program if you have one, and if you don't investing in one so that that's there for confidential support. It means having a pillar for mental health that weaves through the whole DEI initiative and different affinity groups that if you have them, but it's just one example.

Other examples I think that need attention are our neurodiverse community. As a neurotypical person with neurodiverse individuals in my team and in my family, and I've learned a lot, and yet I have so much to learn, but I love talking to employers who have their whole... They have a whole dedicated effort on hiring and retaining neurodiverse individuals, and that is gaining steam and being de-stigmatized. And there are neurodiverse affinity groups or subgroups committees within other affinity groups too. So, that's another one.

I think veterans. I think the formerly incarcerated or those with conviction histories is an enormous talent pool, like millions and millions and millions of capable individuals that right now are getting screened out because of really onerous background check criteria. So, that's a huge opportunity slash emergency, I think. Gosh, I could go on and on, but I think the point is that I continue to add diversity dimensions to my conversations and to the examples I use.

And it's so... You can just see people's eyes light up. You can see people see their family members in the conversation. You can see them see themselves for the first time. And the feedback I get is, "Thank you, Jennifer. I saw that word up on your slide, and I have never seen my identity in these conversations until now."

So, we've missed that. And we have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time with the really tight focus on some of these, the traditional underrepresented identities, which continues to be so important and so urgent and such a crisis. But we also... And we have to also be expansive of caregivers, and parents, and single parents, and widowed folks, and those with chronic illness, and those with different gender expressions, and identities, and there's just so much opportunity here. It's an overwhelming amount of opportunity.

And so, probably the challenge is when you do this is people say, "Oh, I can't handle all this. Where do I start on my inclusive leadership journey?" And so, I just say, "Pick something that really resonates with you and commit to progressing, whatever, however that's defined for you, something that you care about, something that is emerging for you or someone you love, something that's happened as a leader, as a manager on your team or amongst a team member, something that you feel a fire about and changing and just pick it and become a voice for that. Go on your journey."

And then, on an Allyship Day, be humble to all that you don't know, and make sure that as you learn and step into this a lived experience that may not be yours, you are not speaking for, but you are advocating alongside, and you're also checking in to make sure you're not overstepping or having too much saviorism or making a decision for people about what those remedies are, but really checking in and saying, "I saw that happen. I know this is happening. What are the things that can be done? What would you like in terms of support?"

And I think that's so beautiful because like you and I, Stephanie, we would answer that question differently. What kind of support we need when a nightclub shooting happens... When a bad thing happens and we're in pain and we're suffering, we've been traumatized... The ask of what does support look like right now could be different you to me. And it's different human to human.

Even if you're in the same community, the ability to see and make space for different remedies for different people, I think is what makes this work kind of hard to scale. But also though, at the same time, really, there's diversity in the diversity too, which stands to reason and I think makes it all the more beautiful. But we do need to pause and sort of check ourselves as we rush forward in our good intentions and our passion and our want to make a dent in this. We constantly have to make sure we're checking in to make sure, is it the right dent that I'm making? Is it having the impact that my intent wants? And if not, what can I correct or adjust? And having the humility and putting our egos in check around our own imperfections and our own lack of competency, which I think can be really hard for some of us, particularly those of us who've been patted on the back for our accomplishments, for being rewarded in the old system that we were talking about earlier.

It can feel really destabilizing to say, "I don't know. I don't know the answer. I'm not good at this. I am going to know. I'm going to learn and work on this, and I need your help." And sort of putting yourself in that position may feel antithetical to a lot of folks, but that there's such beauty in that humility.

Stephanie:

I think the whole piece of being vulnerable is a piece of leadership that maybe not everyone's comfortable with. They're not comfortable because they may not have the answers when you start doing the work. It's like, "Well, I need to know in order to start this." I'm like, "Well, no. You don't, actually. We can just start and start looking at things because you're not going to know everything. I'm not going to know everything. So it's just getting to know what we don't know together and starting that journey." And a question that a lot of organizations ask is around affinity groups or ERGs. Should it be one for every kind of intersectionality? Or should we start off as one for everyone, whomever wants to join within an organization? What's your thoughts on that one?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. That's such a beautiful question. And I think that's changing because you have a Generation Z who's coming in who would very much want to be a part of all of them. And I think that generation is going to not necessarily, "Oh, I'm part of the Black network," or, "Oh, of course I'm in the LGBTQ network." I think they look at identity differently, and we've had these kind of "single," if there's not such a thing, but a single identity group, that model is like 30 or 40 years old at this point. Some companies have had affinity groups for over 30 years and in this sort of traditional vertical identity way.

So, what I think is fascinating is the horizontal identities, the things that cut across the identities: the mental health, the parenting, the caregiving, the gender identity. I mean, all of that, the disability, the sort of what is common amongst us that crosses identity is almost... I'd almost flip the model sideways for the next 10 years. It'd be really neat to kind of do that. And it's very radical to do something like that, and I'm sure nobody would ever do it. However, just an idea for some of you that are thinking about how to structure your initiatives, because to me, that would speak to what, to your point, what's shared, because I think in these times of division and in these times of gosh, being accused of being exclusionary... So, that's what we're hearing, even though we know that sometimes we need to exclude to include, to create a community of safety so that people can find themselves and each other and find their voice together, and then go forth into an environment where they're underrepresented. Right?

That is so important, and that will always be important. But I think you've also got to knowledge how incredible, how inclusive would it be to have these efforts aligned around all the things we share, and then have a conversation about how is parenting different for LGBTQ parents, or parents of color, or parents of a certain generation, or single parents, or grandparents raising kiddos. Then, we can have a really fascinating conversation about what we share.

And so, I don't know exactly how that's structured. It's a very radical idea. I don't see companies changing their strategy anytime soon. But maybe you were just saying you're working with some early stage companies who really are wanting to start with the 2.0 as a baseline, and that would be my recommendation to really dig into that and see what your structure might look like. Because how are you going to manage the fact that you have people who want to be a part of everything, either in their lived experience or as an ally and feel equally passionate and are kind of going to be spread across a lot of different initiatives? Because that's the way this new generation really thinks, which is so beautiful and amazing.

I love it. It just doesn't necessarily speak to the safety issues that a lot of us had in Gen X. Right? Around, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the only LGBTQ person I think in the whole country that works for my company. Where do I go, even just to know people?" And that's still a huge reality for some of us. So, it's a really fascinating dichotomy going on.

Stephanie:

It is, for sure. Yeah. And I don't think there's any such thing as a right way to do it. I think start doing it, and getting to know your folks, and getting to know what's important to them. And I think that the whole humanity piece is a piece of sometimes what we're missing. We're not getting to know on a personal level, our employees, people that we work with. We've come kind of a little bit robotic unfortunately.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. We have to really push into that. I think you're right, and I think DEI initiatives could really emphasize that. I don't know if they have, because I think they've been focused on shoring up, and rightly so, shoring up those of us who feel really isolated and feel differentially impacted by bias. All of that is critical, necessary. And we can't take our eye off the ball, especially as it's being challenged by the Supreme Court in my country, especially as it's being the very tenets of everything we teach around things like affirmative action, things like goals and targets, and looking at the pipeline and saying, we want by a certain date, we want to see this kind of diversity, which represents the world that we do business in. The fact that we have to kind of bury that, that we can't really be overt about that, that we can't speak it, it's such a strange place we're in.

But I think we can go towards inclusiveness, though. This is why I have written most of my books on the topic of inclusion. That to me is the how leaders lead. It's the environment we can create. It's the culture every day. It's how it feels for different identities, and we can set those goals all day long, I think, and sort of stay out of the fray of a lot of what's become politicized and have a more leadership conversation, which is to say people do better when they feel they belong. What is getting in the way of that belonging? What role does identity play in that or underrepresentation play in that? And then, how can we remedy that? Because honestly, we're not going to have a fully "representative" workplace for a very long time. That's way in the future.

We have many miles to go, so we'll keep sort of working on that. But what we can impact, I think, is the E and the B, and even that the I, the E, and the B, I think, are things that we can actually really go after and really change and will have a huge impact on that diversity once we bring that diversity into the organization. Is the organization ready to...

I always think of it like planting seeds in hard ground. So, the seeds are the talent that's coming in, but if the ground isn't hospitable to that seed, it's not going to thrive. It's not going to grow. And that seedling that it does grow is very fragile. And the best organizations and the most healthy cultures nurture that fragile thing that's going to become this incredible leader and asset to the organization someday. The healthiest organizations know how to do that. So, I think it's not a bad idea to really rotate into the realm that I focus in. And these other things, the politicization will come and go, and we have to navigate that, but in the meantime, there's so much we can do to prepare the ground so much.

Stephanie:

Absolutely. I think a question that people don't ask sometimes is around exclusion. We all know what exclusion feels like. So, I wonder if we shifted the conversation to what exclusion feels like to folks in your organization, would there be a better understanding of that? Because inclusion, belonging feels like it's a kind of feely, kind of warm fuzzy, that not everyone gets that warm fuzzy. We get it as members of historically excluded to [inaudible 00:38:44] LGBTQ+ community, but in women, but people don't always get that exclusionary piece. So, I wonder if we flipped it and start asking it about exclusion as opposed to inclusion, might there be more uptake on it? Because we've all felt exclusion at times. But the inclusion piece, we don't always get. The belonging piece we don't always get, because it just is. It's one of those. It's just I guess a different mindset and shift. So, when we start looking at exclusion will people get it maybe slightly better?

Jennifer Brown:

I like that idea. I actually really... It's like I forget what those pictures are where you kind of blur your eyes and you can see what...

Stephanie:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Jennifer Brown:

... Right? There's a whole other picture going on, and maybe you're right. Maybe that is available to us, and it's sort of looking at the negative. It's looking at what's not there and how that has felt. And you're right, everyone knows what that feels like in their own version of it. Everyone.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

Everyone.

Stephanie:

That's your next book by the way. I'll [inaudible 00:39:42] piece for you.

Jennifer Brown:

She's the one who wrote the book Inclusion, and then she wrote the book Exclusion. You're signing me up for another book. I think my team-

Stephanie:

I know.

Jennifer Brown:

... Is not going to be happy about that, but... I mean, they might be, but books are a lot to do. But it's a great idea. We have to talk about this differently. I mean, what you say, no matter what we've got to say, "How has the message not been adopted and how has it made people feel? If I don't get that, then I can't participate."

So, we need to take it out of the conceptual and make it real, make it concrete, make it relate to everybody. There's somehow we have to help people see they have skin in the game. And I don't think... We have not accomplished that. And so, we've got the opting out of so many people.

Stephanie:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

And we're suffering the consequences of that. So, I think if we had talked about this maybe differently... I mean, hindsight is easy to talk about, but how can we now make this something that is compelling for everyone of every identity and every background? How can we make it compelling as something that could solve something, heal something, enable something, celebrate something, enable people of all identities to, I think, lower their waterline and on the iceberg that I always teach and bring something to the fore that is a huge part of who you are but is stigmatized or hidden that other people need to see. Because we need to humanize and normalize that thing.

And if I present it that way, and then I let, I have people do an exercise and share something that's under their waterline, they will share all sorts of things: how they grew up without a lot, or without enough to eat, or were the first to go to college in their family, or had domestic violence in their home, or were raised by a single parent or have coped with a sick parent, or... I think my friend says, Kenji Yoshino, who everybody knows that listens to me, because I always talk about him, but he says, "We can't play the pain Olympics. This isn't 'You have been burdened and I haven't.'" Or yes. There are real burdens of racism, sexism, homophobia, ableism for sure, and we can hold that and make more space for a more holistic conversation around...

And I think that what was so cool about it is every time a leader kind of lets down their guard, becomes more transparent and vulnerable. It gives someone who shares that story the opportunity to say, "Me too. Me too. I grew up that way," or "I have struggled with that my whole life." Or "I have a hidden diversity dimension that I've never spoken." Or...

So, the ability we have to shine a light for someone is so much bigger than we are and has all these ripple effects that are hard for us to see sometimes, and I know a lot of us are creatures of immediate gratification, but you have to do things and not know where they're going to land and not know who they're going to land for and know that they're landing, just know. I know every time I share my pronouns on stage, and I come out as somebody who has a female partner for 25 years, I know, even if that audience is stone-cold, even if... I mean, they used to stand in auditoriums and rooms, not so often anymore. It's sort of fixed now, but just that stoniness. Right? That the arms crossed, the body language, the "Am I going to come out of here alive? What is happening right now?"

And you walk off the stage and you think, "Did anybody hear me today?" [inaudible 00:43:36] Just the weirdest, wildest, hardest feeling, especially for somebody like me who's a speaker and my whole life's work is to communicate.

But I know... Now, I know. I've just been through it so many times. I just know. I know I get that email. I know I get that side hallway conversation. I know that someone needed to hear it. And so, I just give that to all of you who are listening that whatever you have, it's so important to another person to know that they aren't... Every little bit of vulnerability that we choose to show lessens the stigma. And I think that's part of change, and that's our role. It's our duty. It's why the challenge happened to us in the first place, to leave it better for people who are coming behind us. I mean, that's why. That's why we're given the lives that we're given. So, it's just this really neat way of building a legacy, but you're not going to necessarily be able to see it or hold it, but you've got to have faith that it's happening.

Stephanie:

Absolutely. Tell me... Our last little bit of time. What do you want your legacy to be? What does that look like for you?

Jennifer Brown:

I think I'm proudest probably of, and I hope that I'm considered to be someone who creates a safe space for people who acknowledges might be the first time that somebody felt acknowledged in all of their identities, including white, straight men. I want that also to be... I want to be a place that people say reading her work, or her books, or listening to her, like the pennies drop for me. It made sense for me, or I felt unlocked for the first time, or I realized what I could be doing differently. I mean, to be able to impact a generation of leaders to be different and to look at themselves differently and to know maybe for the first time there's so much more they could be doing or doing differently and knowing that they may create a different experience for people around them. Because really ultimately, I really care about the people around them.

I really care about the little version of me, the younger version of me that's struggling to find purpose and do work that matters and feel safe every day. So, if I can impact the leaders in the middle, right, the people that have so much power and control over, with, the folks that are led every day, because we still live in this sort of hierarchy system, of course, if I can impact those leaders to impact others differently, I would be probably proudest of that.

And I hope my work is evergreen and continues into the future and continue, sadly continues to be relevant and something that people return to sort of ground into and kind of anchor themselves in what's important and also what's accessible for every kind of learner, like every kind, I hope. I don't just want to be helpful for those who are already on the path. I want to be helpful for everybody who's just awakening, and also for those that haven't awakened yet, and everything in between.

Stephanie:

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. It's been a pure pleasure to have an hour to connect with you and to share some different insights and to see what your journey is going to be. And I look forward to see how your journey continues to play out. And believe me, you're very relevant for those of us in the community. Lots of love from all of us that are part of your community and that listen to your podcast and read your books. It's been a true pleasure.

Jennifer Brown:

Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live.

Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion, and the future of work. And discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Speaker 5:

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To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.