Standing for all Hoosiers: Strategic DEI at the State Level with Indiana's Chief Equity, Inclusion, and Opportunity Officer, Karrah Herring

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KARRAH HERRING: I believe strongly that in order to really see the change that we need to see within any organization, it's an inside job. There are people that are gonna have to plant themselves within these organizations, within state government, within politics, to do the work, and it's hard, and there are many sacrifices that one will have to make to come into the space to do this, but someone has to do it, and when you think about people across the country who often haven't had a seat at the table, um, the types of tables that you and I get to sit at, it's important that we're there. You have to keep pushing because it's so much bigger than ourselves, it's so much bigger than just you, just me. We are doing this work for people that we will never meet.

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 The Will To Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, best-selling author, and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier, and therefore, more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results, informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies. She and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, onto the episode.

Hello, and welcome back to The Will To Change. This episode features a conversation between Jennifer and Karrah Herring. Karrah is Indiana's first ever Chief Equity, Inclusion, and Opportunity Officer for the state of Indiana. And in the episode, as, uh, as our guests often do, Karrah shares her personal story. Uh, she also describes her current role, the history of the role, and why the governor created it. And, she talks about her transition from academia to government, and how the practice of DEI differs in the government arena. All this and much more, and now, onto the conversation.

JENNIFER BROWN: Karrah, welcome to The Will To Change.

KARRAH HERRING: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you today.

JENNIFER BROWN: I am too. So, I have to thank the wonderful Joseph Pinnell, who is your deputy chief and executive director for workforce engagement. That's a mouthful. (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Yes, it is. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: But, but Joseph is all the things, as we know-

KARRAH HERRING: He is.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and you know, (laughs) as his boss. Um-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes, I do.

JENNIFER BROWN: What a special person, and Joseph, big shout out to you and everything, all the ways that you've been showing up, uh, in our communities at JBC. You know, we've been, uh, carrying on these ... You know, they were weekly for a while, and then they moved to monthly, but ever since the pandemic started, just trying to co-, you know, coalesce the DEI community, pull everybody together, pr-, provide the space to just breath together and kind of-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... think about the importance of our work, but also the stresses that come along with it, and, and how we need to radically support each other, because it-

KARRAH HERRING: Radically.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: So, we need to get into that, for you.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah, for sure.

JENNIFER BROWN: But um, you are, you know, Dr. Herring, so tell us about, you know, your pathway into DEI work and what you do currently. You know, we will have already introduced you here, and, and given your credentials before this episode airs, but you know, you're pretty, you're pretty darn impressive, and I know that you're, you're a first in many ways, so I would love you to kind of take a moment to brag about that stuff. (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Aw, that's so nice.

JENNIFER BROWN: Because, it matters.

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs) It does matter, and I sometimes have to sit back and kind of, you know, just exist in this space that it matters. I'm often not one to talk about the firsts and all that, but it, there is, there is a, a purpose behind all of that, especially for those coming behind me, so I'm, I'm-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mmm.

KARRAH HERRING: ... really glad you asked that question. So I, my pathway into DE&I is really interesting. I, um, first of all, I'm a Hoosier through and through, born and raised in Indiana-

JENNIFER BROWN: Uh-huh.

KARRAH HERRING: ... so I am an Indiana girl. I love the state of Indiana. But when I went to law school, I actually had hopes of going into, um, family law, and was looking at some different types of family law, contract law, and ended up at the University of Notre Dame while I was studying for the bar exam, and I was in a role around workplace compliance, so I was creating the university's affirmative action plans, I was overseeing our A- American's with Disabilities acts compliance, our veteran compliance, and I really started to fall in love with the work of compliance through the lens of organizational governance.

And so, I was in higher education for quite a bit of time. The interesting thing was I came in, and I was gonna be in that job just like temporarily while I was study-, while I was studying for the bar, and then I got promoted, and then I got promoted again, and then I got promoted again and ended up running the office that I came in to support affirmative action work with and got to oversee workplace investigations under Title VII and Title IX.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: And, you know, it was a really cool experience for me because it was quasi legal and I wanted to really utilize my, my JD. But interestingly enough, when you're responsible for investigating bad behavior, people don't want to see you coming (laughing) because they know that something bad has happened.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's right. That's right.

KARRAH HERRING: Routine calls. So, about seven years into my time with Notre Dame, I talked to my VP of HR, and I said, "Hey, my undergraduate degree is in public relations, communications. I want to get back into that space." And so, the university, um, set up an opportunity for me to be the director of public affairs, and so my last three years at Notre Dame, I was really heavily involved in community engagement and looking at our economic impact to the region around us and how we were cultivating relationships with nonprofits and corporations and the faith community, and I loved it. It was amazing to go from really being an internal, um, facing role, to help with internal workforce culture, to transitioning over to our external facing role and working with all types of stakeholders across the state, and really across the globe, because I got to travel to our, our Italy location and our London location and I got to go to our Dublin, Ireland location.

And so I got some really, really cool external engagement experience there, but was tapped, uh, in 2020 by Governor Holcomb administration to come lead this first ever effort around equity, inclusion, and opportunity for the state of Indiana, and I'll be honest with you, when, when the person from his administration who reached out to see if I might be interested called, I told them initially, you know, "I'm not a diversity, equity, and inclusion expert. That's not my wheelhouse. I was in compliance, and I do external engagement."

But after the conversation with Governor Holcomb and hearing his heart around how he really wanted to take an intentional focus on how all Hoosiers within the state of Indiana are experiencing their quality of life, and belonging and inclusion and opportunity are a big piece of that, he was speaking my language, because I knew then I could take all of the things I'd learned with, you know, governance of an organization and compliance and all of the things I'd learned doing external operations and community engagement, and really take that and, and, and contribute in a very strategic way to how they set this new Office of Equity, Inclusion, and Opportunity up.

And it was speaking to the core of who I am, and that's just, I love to serve people and make sure that people are able to live their best quality of life, and that's, it, it's been, it's permeated through all of the work I've done.

JENNIFER BROWN: Okay.

KARRAH HERRING: So, that's how I've gotten into this, but I will tell ya, I still don't consider myself a DE&I expert. I consider myself someone who's come in strategically and set up this great infrastructure, and then hired some really amazing DE&I experts-

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh.

KARRAH HERRING: ... and I think we're, we're rolling, we're rolling hard here and doing some good work.

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, you are, you are.

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: And you know, it's such a weird, it's a f-, strange field, I mean, those of us in the field acknowledge there is really no path, and-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... it's still being built out by those of us that are in it. You know? It's one-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... of those fields that is so, we each bring something so unique as a lens to the practice of the work... and I think in that, because of that, we tend to innovate within our space because we are coming from different disciplines, and like you just laid out, you know, your ability to really meet him where he was at and is at, at the time as a leader, what he needs to see and what he needs support-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... to do, and you bringing, you know, mustering all of that amazing background, and having this wholistic, what I hear in your description, is really a wholistic, multi-faceted-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... way of approaching DEI, which, which is necessary. You know, th-, our work, I think, is not effe-, as effective when it's very ... yes, focus is important, but, but-

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... it is compl-, it's complex work.

KARRAH HERRING: It is.

JENNIFER BROWN: It's multi-stakeholder work-

KARRAH HERRING: Mmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and it's also fraught with a lot of opinions, a lot of feelings, a lot of, you know, I think, very difficult negotiations, in a way, and-

KARRAH HERRING: Absolutely.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and you cannot do it without a strong leader. I mean, that is like, at the bottom line, at the end of the day, people will ask me, "What is the A, number one factor?" And that, that, you know, Governor Holcomb sounds like you just clicked in-

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and you were like, "We could work together and do some really incredible things."

KARRAH HERRING: Absolutely. And the very interesting thing for me was when we sat down for that initial conversation, just the way our thought about how we had to be very strategic with how we were engaging all of the stakeholders involved, like you said, it's multi-faceted, there's layers. Not just coming in and saying, "Okay, we're gonna focus on workforce and just create a training around diversity, equity, and inclusion." No, how do we get our stakeholders, especially being state government, that we partner with in the corporate space and in the, the nonprofit space, and then our legislators, and there are so many different audiences that we have to cater to, and so having that conversation early on, he and I were on the same page around how we approach this work, and I think Joseph has probably talked to you about our four pillars, but that was really the foundation of how we wanted to get this work going so that we didn't scare people off at the beginning-

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: ... but really started to welcome people into it, because you know how divisive the word diversity can be for people, which it shouldn't be, but it's so scary right now in this climate to hear the word diversity or to hear the word inclusion, and so the governor and I had a very, um, great conversation about just how we would approach it initially-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: ... with those four pillars, and I think it's been quite successful in Indiana.

JENNIFER BROWN: Really smart. And it started with the, the name, how you named your function, if you will-

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and also the four pillars. Would you tell us about the naming, and also what the four pillars are-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and, and what, and give us a little context on each?

KARRAH HERRING: For sure. So, the office is the Office of the Chief Equity, Inclusion, and Opportunity Officer, and we wanted to be very intentional with folks understanding that, yes, we're looking at workforce culture, but we're also looking at state culture. We're trying to figure out how we create equity and we create opportunity and we create inclusion for all Hoosiers, especially those Hoosiers who have been marginalized, who have been left out of the conversations for many years, and so that was a very intentional approach with the name and the governor came up with the name.

And so I walked into that name, and I asked them, I said, "You know, I noticed that diversity's not in the title," and, and they said, "Well, there was, there was some, uh, kind of a method behind that. We wanted to make sure that we were lifting up equity, opportunity, and inclusion, and we didn't want to derail some of the conversations during that time in 2020 with the word diversity, you know, sending certain people in a certain direction." And so which was fine with me, I'm like, "This is great. I can work with this." And so when I came in initially, I said, "W- We probably shouldn't start with like anti-racism training, or, you know, bias consciousness." I said, "Most people have- they're just kinda like what's gonna happen." They never had a position like this before in Indiana state government. I said, you know, "I'm not in the business of trying to change beliefs, but I do believe that organizations can change behaviors." And I think we do that by starting with civility. Um, that's the first pillar. Constructive disagreement, having conversations in a productive manner to get to solutions even when we're not on the same page. Compassionate listening, really taking the helicopter view and hearing people for what their experience is, even if it's something that you can't relate to. It's- it doesn't matter if you can't relate or it hasn't happened to you, it's happened to them or that's their view of the world. And so listening compassionately to accept their words for what they are.

And then using compassionate listening, constructive disagreement, and civility to really start to champion a culture of inclusion. And I said, "If we start there at that basic premise of just being respectful and creating stronger teams and really learning to hear one another beyond our own views of how we believe the world should be." I said, "It probably will be a lot easier to start to dig into some more intense bias consciousness training and anti-racism training. But if we can't start at the basic level of just being civil with one another and taking other people's experiences at face value for what they say they are, um, I don't know that we're gonna have much success with diversity training." (laughs).

And so that's really our four pillars, you know, and it's been incredibly successful in a session called Next Level Teams. And it plays off of the governor's Next Level branding that he's used across many initiatives. And not only have we done this for thousands of employees within state government, because we have 30,000 within the executive branch, but cities and counties across the state have invited us to come in and train their leadership teams and we've done community groups and neighborhood associations. And it's been really fantastic.

JENNIFER BROWN: That is so amazing. I- it's- it's a bit of going back to go forward.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: And it's also- I love the sensitivity that you have to the importance of where you start.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Because you do not want to lose people, you can't afford to lose people.

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? And the engagement is too important. And you have a very limited time to do that in.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And so I- I love how strategic that is and that it is connected to things that we can- many of us can rel- you know, relate to.

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Meaning to do and develop in ourselves and in others. And then- and then moving to the 2.0-

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... once we've laid the foundation and invested in that.

KARRAH HERRING: That's right. And I've gotten, um, some slack about that, right? There are some people who wanted me to come in and bust the walls down and disrupt immediately. And I said, "Listen, you have to be very much aware of your audience. You have to be very much aware of how to read the room." And we are in Indiana, my home state, which is a Republican state and I'm very much aware of that. And- and I love Indiana, but there are certain ways that you have to approach certain conversations. And coming in and busting the walls down and being this big disruptor, we would've, um, hurt the initiatives before we even got started. And so I- I- I've taken those hits from certain people who are like, "You're not being aggressive enough." But what they don't see are the conversations I'm having behind closed doors with the administration and agency heads, right?

I am being quite aggressive and I'm challenging us to look at our procurement, and I'm challenging us to look at our hiring and how we are retaining diverse talent. I'm challenging us to make sure that we have resource groups for diverse employees. And so th- those challenges are happening and those- those tough conversations are happening. But when we're talking about, you know, really in- including a- a wide range of Hoosiers into the conversation, um, you know, I have to be mindful of how my messaging comes across. And so, I get it. Some people want me to be a little bit more aggressive, some people want me to tone it down a little bit.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs).

KARRAH HERRING: You're never gonna make everyone happy. But we try to approach it in the best way we know how. And I think so far we've had pretty- pretty good success.

JENNIFER BROWN: So amazing. How- have you seen the governor like shift and grow on this topic while you've been working together? Um, how do you view his trajectory as a leader on- on inclusion in general?

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. I mean he's all in, right? And I think, you know, from day one I knew that about him. It's one of the reasons I came to work for him. I am someone who's a firm believer that if an organization is creating a DE&I initiative to just check the box, no one should take that role, you're wasting your time. And that's not what was happening here. There was a real desire and a real heart to really start to bring more Hoosiers to the table around decisions that were being made at the state level.

And I will tell you, it- it could be something as simple as the governor, you know, a couple months ago meeting with the CEO of one of the largest energy companies and saying, "Hey, Cara, I need you in the room. I need you in the room with me for this meeting. He's coming in from Texas, I want you there so we can talk about how we're looking at all the big op- opportunities coming up around workforce and around, um, jobs and infrastructure." You know, he really has taken this initiative very seriously and he has utilized me as a resource in a number of different meetings, not just with Black leaders, not just with the Latino leaders, or the LGBTQ community, right?

He's- it's all leaders and he's like, "You've got to have this equity lens on the work." And so I mean I- I couldn't work for a better leader and I'm learning so much under his leadership, so, it's great.

JENNIFER BROWN: So inspiring and it gives me so much hope, uh, to hear that.

KARRAH HERRING: Thank you.

JENNIFER BROWN: And it is possible. And- but that- that relationship with- with the most, you know, I guess senior leader in any organizational system.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And that buy in and that visible support and the proactive, I love that you said it wasn't for just for these meetings, it doesn't- it wasn't just on these topics.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: It's everything because it needs to be everywhere.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: It needs to be ubiquitous, it needs to be the lens that we look at all of our investments and efforts through.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, and, um, so what- what's the biggest thing you've learned transitioning from academia to government?

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs).

JENNIFER BROWN: And, um, you know, my audience is mainly corporate but we do have some academics.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And- but what do you think the- the nuance is of doing this work in that environment?

KARRAH HERRING: Oh my god. I thought academia was slow, right?

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs).

KARRAH HERRING: I spent a little bit of time in corporate in different spaces, I worked for Follett Higher Education Group. Um, which supplies textbooks to colleges and universities. But I thought wow, academia is really slow and then I got into state government. (laughs).

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs).

KARRAH HERRING: And I thought is this- is this real life? Am I on like Saturday Night Live?

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs).

KARRAH HERRING: What is happening right now?

JENNIFER BROWN: Am I being Punk'd?

KARRAH HERRING: Am I being Punk'd?

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs).

KARRAH HERRING: The amount of red tape and paperwork and the bureaucracy and the amount of eyes that have to be on something. I would say that's probably the most frustrating aspect of the role is you don't feel like you're getting much accomplished because there's so much paperwork, so much red tape. Um, so it moves slowly, right? That's- that's the challenge. The other challenge with academia, and I was at the University of Notre Dame, the other challenge is leaving- leaving a space where you know that you have some- some job security, you know that you're going to be somewhere for awhile. I was there for just like shy of a decade, very comfortable.

State government changes, um, quickly when it comes to- to the people in power, right? So you have only so much time with an administration because there's gonna be a new governor coming in every four to eight years. And so I knew I was coming in on the governor's second term which means that we really only have a couple years left to really dig into this work before the administration changes. So there is that angst about a change in administration and what that means for initiatives that you're trying to set up throughout state government.

But honestly, the opportunity to impact a greater audience, to have a broader impact, to really be able to look at systems and policy and legislation, at that level, at the state level, i- it's a dream come true for someone like me who really wants to get to root causes as to why we're seeing people have negative social determinants of health in certain populations. Why we're seeing a lack of folks entering the workforce from certain populations. Th- having access to those systems to really start to work with agency heads and legislators to look at that, dream come true. It's just, you gotta take the good with the bad. And I- I know that we won't get things done as quickly as we can in corporate or in- in academia.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs). I- I'm so not surprised you said that. That's what I would've thought you said.

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs).

JENNIFER BROWN: And- and you have this conundrum of a short amount of time with a slow bureaucratic system.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes. (laughs).

JENNIFER BROWN: And to leave your legacy, which I know is important to you. And- and literally build something for the first time that's actually being sought after as a best practice.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And I- I just wanna know like who's noticing, who's calling you, emailing you, saying they can learn from how you've done this.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Like what- what is your sense of the need for the learning that you're demonstrating to be, um, replicated in this- in the systems around you-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... where are those inquiries coming from? And what does it tell you about the state of the state?

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. You know, the- the need is high and I'm- I'm really excited around, so I will tell you Minnesota reached out not too long ago and we did a conversation via Zoom with their, uh, governor and lieutenant governor's teams. And just talked about how the office is structured, how I report directly to the governor and then I was able to bring on my team and that it's cabinet level. We talked about all of that because it's important. But we also talked about how we made sure that the work is data driven and evidence based. So, that it's not about our emotions, right? We wanna make sure that everything is objective and not subjective.

And so we really try to make sure that the data drives what we do. And so a lot of folks are paying attention to our equity data portal. So we have people from all over the country reaching out to say, "You know, how did you set this up? Who did you work with? Where did the data come from?" You know, kinda what are the inner workings of that. And it's been really positive because I think states are starting to realize. And this is- this is not just a- a Republican thing or a Democratic thing. This is bipartisan. I think they're starting to realize that when you look at population health, and COVID had a lot to do with this, uh, there are some disparities in how the Black and brown and lower socioeconomic communities are experiencing health outcomes. And COVID shined a light on that, right? And it was very obvious that there are some deficiencies with how certain populations are accessing state services.

And so because we've taken a really hard look at that with our data portal and we're working with these agencies, a lot of states are just asking us for the blueprint. What was the impetus behind this? How do we set this up? And I was in Seattle, um, a couple weeks ago for a- a conference with an organization called NASHP, um, it's the- the National Academy of State Health Professionals. And they're very- we've- I had so many people coming up to me after the session, "We wanna talk to your data team. We wanna see how we can set this up for our state." Because when we use the data to drive our initiatives we'll get to those bet- better outcomes a little quicker.

And so we've been- we've been leading by example and again credit and kudos to our governor for- for saying that we were gonna set this up and we were gonna start with the data. That was his-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: You know, that was his initiative that we started with it. And it's been great and I hope more states decide to go this route because honestly Jennifer, when you think about diversity, equity, and inclusion work, it- it's a trigger for so many people. But what I tell people is when you look at the numbers, the numbers do not lie. And when you see that certain populations are having a negative experience in this country because of a lack of access to resources and opportunities, how can we argue with that? That means we need to do some things to make some changes within our systems, our structures, and our policies. And so, the data is critical for me.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's right. That's right. What were the- um, what are the frustrations around collecting the data, the kind of data you're able to get? Um, I know-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, in the LGBT community, like, disclosure is a really big deal-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and a very difficult thing, same with disabilities.

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: So like, I wonder what are some of the things you've come up against, in terms of putting that data picture together so that we can make the best, most informed decision?

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. Well, you- you named one of them, disclosure. People are often uh, a little- there- there's some trepidation behind providing certain data to state entities, government entities and so, just not having a full comprehensive view. Uh, but the other thing is the commonality of how we're collecting the data. So, there are different agencies, let's take social services. Like, family and social services administration, for instance, might collect demographic data and certain population data in a very different way than the state police would collect that information.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: And then they would collect it in a very different way than the court's would collect that information. And so, I'm serving on um, a data governance committee. M- our team has kind of started the demographic data gov- governance committee. Josie Fasoldt, who's our chief data and strategy officer, is working on that because when you start to try to collect that to push out reports that the public can easily digest, having different data sources and not- uh, you know, there- there's no commonality of language. There's a lot of cleaning that has to happen on the backend before we can push that out, and it slows efforts down. And so I think Josie leading these efforts around demographic data governance is go- going to help us um, have a more streamlined process, but that's the most difficult thing.

I'm serving on a commission for the Supreme Court to look at equity and access with the courts, and one of the challenges is the data is just not e- not collected, or the data that's collected is not collected in a way that's easy to translate over to the- to the layperson. Right? So, those are the real challenges with it. And when you're dealing with 6.8 million people in a state and you're trying to figure all that out, it slows things down. But I'm really- our- our management performance hub, MPH, our data collection group, they're doing a really fantastic job, Josh Martin and his team. And I- I feel very comfortable with the data that they've cleaned and provided for us for our equity data portal, it's spot on. But we know in those future iterations, we will be able to get better and better and better.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's right. I mean, based on what you're looking at then, uh, what is most urgent? I mean, if you had to kind of- just using that, you know, the- the- the... I mean, it's the low hanging fruit question, but it's also the, "What's on fire?" question. (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: What do you- is it those health disparities? Is it reaching black and brown communities and a- adequately supporting and investing? Like, where is the- where is sort of the- the pieces that keep you up at night-

KARRAH HERRING: Yep.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... based on what you're hearing- learning from that collection of information?

KARRAH HERRING: The first and foremost um, pieces of data that keep me up at night are around education.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: And so when you look at how black and brown students are experiencing the education system in the United States, and then you add the learning loss that took place during- during COVID- due to COVID um, our black and brown students are falling further and further behind, as are our students with disabilities and our students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. And that's what keeps me up at night. Because if you think about the ability for one to break the cycle of poverty, if they are not able, these students are not able, to read at the levels they need to read at, they're not going to be able to compete in STEM and any other areas within education, which means that it puts them on track to not be ready for higher education or ready for any type of program after high school.

So, we are working really closely with the department of education on looking at literacy rates at the 3rd grade level, and starting with early learning. Right? How are we getting these preschool kids resources so that they can start learning to read early before they even hit the kindergarten classroom. Those are some of the most alarming numbers because I'm thinking about future of our workforce and I'm thinking about the future of opportunity for these students who we want to break the cycle of poverty.

Um, number two is probably related to the social determinants of health. And so when you think about, if we can solve- and this is gonna take years, if we can start to- to solve the education issue and get these kids reading at the level they're supposed to read at. And now they can compete more so in the STEM space, and then they're ready to go onto higher education so the college going rate goes up. We can solve for those things, then we're preparing these kids to be able to compete for higher wage jobs, we're preparing them for a future where they can actually have economic empowerment and success. And then we'll start to see the social determinants of health change on that backend because they are now in jobs that they can afford to go to a doctor-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: ... that will give them consistent care. They can afford to purchase their first home, they can afford to make sure that their kids are in the best schools. But until we solve it early in the education space, we're going to continue to produce these students who are either not graduating from high school, or they're graduating and they don't have the credentials to get into those jobs that can actually help them have a better quality of life. And so, that impacts the social determinants of health that we see later, and those are the things that keep me up at night.

And I- and I'm- I'm also really worried that we don't lose sight of the students who are already 8th grade, 9th grade, 10th- 10th grade, 11th grade. We've missed the mark for them in the K through tw- the K through 6th space, right? We've missed the mark, but how can we support those students with work-based learning, with um, you know, internships, with some type of apprenticeships? How can we make sure that those students can get into the workforce and be successful? I'm really worried, I- I am. The secretary of education is too, Dr. Katie Jenner for Indiana, and that's why we work so closely together. Um, we probably talk three or four times a week-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: And so, that's what keeps us up at night.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: How can we start to solve this on the- the very front end so that later, the economic empowerment of these communities looks very differently.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: And then the last one, when you look at the procurement space, we have a lot of state contracts-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

KARRAH HERRING: ... we have a lot of opportunities in the government space for contracts, we have corporations that have a lot of spin that they're spinning across the co- you know, their communities. How can we get more women-owned businesses, minority-owned businesses, veteran-owned businesses, and individual with disability owned businesses into that procurement space so that they can compete for some of these major contracts and really start to scale up their businesses? That's important. Because if we start to look at how we can solve for some of these issues around economic empowerment, well, give some of these amazing businesses opportunities (laughs) and contracts.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? That's it.

KARRAH HERRING: And so, those are- those are some of the things that I'm looking at really, really closely. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: I love that. Thank you. Such an education to listen to you map it out. And um, as a woman-owned and LGBT-owned business uh, for nearly 20 years, it's-

KARRAH HERRING: Oh, wow.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, we tend to- we build economic opportunity in the people we hire, you know, in the economic-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, situation we create. Um, and so, you know, we are known, I think, to better the system if we are engaged proactively-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes. Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and if we are given the opportunities to bid on the those contracts, to win those contracts, to fulfill those contracts.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, we're going to do our work differently, more innovatively. Because I think, you know, uh, when you are out- you know, sort of raised professionally outside of certain systems-

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you have to get extremely creative and think outside the box about, "Well, how are- how am I going to build this company?"

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, "How am I going to, you know, get these contracts and grow?"

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And um, but- but once we're in there, I mean, if you can prioritize diversifying the supply chain... Like, and it's- and it's gazillions of dollars, I mean-

KARRAH HERRING: Gazillions. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, it's so much money. (laughs) It is, um-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes. There's enough to go around. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh- oh, yeah. And- but people end up hiring, sort of, the one they've always worked with-

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, the one who they're friends with-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... the one that they went to school w- you know? There's a lot of bias in the supply chain. All those decisions that are being made about spend, both large and small-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and everything in between. So, I think educating our internal stakeholders and even, you know, the companies-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... encouraging them to make different choices in state, you know, I think overall could have a huge lifting impact-

KARRAH HERRING: I agree.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... on the economic reality and future-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... of so many generations. But- um, but it's one of those, I think, that doesn't get a lot of attention.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And it's frustrating that that's true. Um, but I'm- I'm involved in a lot of the other supplier diversity at the corporate space and I think those- that spend is- is enormous. You know, when you think about- there's one organization, I don't know if you know about it, the billion dollar round table.

KARRAH HERRING: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: And the billion dollar round table is all the big companies sitting around, who spend like major dollars-

KARRAH HERRING: Wow. Wow.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, to even get in that room.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, you know, with one or two decisions to prioritize something, it can have a massive impact.

KARRAH HERRING: Massive.

JENNIFER BROWN: I mean, so anyway um, but I'm really glad that you're involved in that conversation-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... because it needs to also be a multi-stakeholder coalition conversation.

KARRAH HERRING: Absolutely.

JENNIFER BROWN: It shouldn't just be corporate, right?

KARRAH HERRING: Yep. Yep. And there's a group here in Indianapolis called CICP, and they are working on something with um, the Urban League and the Indiana- Indianapolis Chamber around business equity for Indy. And it's exactly what you're talking about, it's taking all of these top organizations in corporate, higher education, non profit, and they're all around the table talking about procurement, policy and people. How can we impact this with the dollars and the power and the influence that we have, so that we can lift these communities quicker? And it's quite fantastic that CICP and the Urban League and Indy- the Indy Chamber are doing it. It's- it's just great. We recently tapped into it and we're hoping to help with some data pools and all that good stuff. So...

JENNIFER BROWN: Excellent. You're such a great commercial for maybe considering- for DEI professionals beyond the corporate world. You know?

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And- and some of the things they may gain and really enjoy-

KARRAH HERRING: For sure.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... in these kinds of roles, like you have, and- and how, you know, Joseph I think has been in role for a little while, not long. But like, what you sort of discover about maybe it- maybe it could ignite a whole new interest for practitioners who kind of think like, this is the way they're gonna go-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and don't consider um, the realm of government, I don't know, for various reasons. Um, also because the government I think is, perhap- perhaps later to the game-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah, for sure. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: ... in terms of having somebody like you in role, right? But like, what would you say to say, you know, "Consider, consider politics and- and government for this role specifically, and here's why."

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: What might you say?

KARRAH HERRING: I- I believe strongly that in order to really see the change that we need to see within any organization, it's an inside job. There are people that are gonna have to plant themselves within these organizations, within state government, within politics, to do the work. And it's hard and there are many sacrifices that one will have to make to come into the space to do this, but someone has to do it. And when you think about people across the country who often haven't had a seat at the table, um, the types of tables that you and I get to sit at, it's important that we're there. And it- and it sucks some days because people aren't nice or people don't listen or they don't think that your- your opinion matters or your expertise is valued, but you have to keep pushing because it's so much bigger than ourselves. It's so much bigger than just you, just me. We are doing this work for people that we will never meet. I will never meet some of the students who I hope this work will impact. I will be long gone into something else. I may be off into eternity, who knows? But I know that I'm building a legacy for folks that I'll never get to shake their hand. But I at least know that we're setting up something within a system, within processes, that will impact their lives for the better. So we need more people like you. We need more people like me who are willing to come into the state government space. And I'll tell you this, there ... if you're a con- ... um, like a consultant and you've never done any work within state government, get up to speed because there are going to be state government officials who need consultants to come in and help them. So get up to speed on policies and legislation and how it works, because there could be some major job opportunities in this space as well. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: Excellent advice. And, and I, I mean, maybe this is an uninformed question, but, um, you know, Democrat, Republican leaders in states, st- ... are, are ... Do you see these positions being created, initiatives being created regardless of that across the board? A- Are there people in your role or type of role-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... That are working for leaders who may not identify with one party or not?

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. So Minnesota Democratic, you know, administration, but look at, um, Utah, Republican, and they have an office similar to mine. It's happening on both sides of the aisle. And I think it needs to continue to happen on both sides of the aisle because when it comes to people's lives, we shouldn't politicize people's lives, right? That's just not ... That's not the way this country has operated in years past, and it shouldn't operate that way now. Um, the, the, the hope that folks can live the American dream should be so much bigger than politics. That should be a nonpartisan effort so that people can come here and live their best quality of life. And so more administrations need to look into doing this regardless of which si- side of the aisle they are on. And I see some of them doing it, and kudos to them for that.

JENNIFER BROWN: Kudos, because it's way more controversial, I'm sure.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And you know, that's a-

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... that's a tricky proposition, but, um, I love wh- ... how you just reframed it. I get the question all the time in the consulting world, isn't ... Jennifer, isn't this, isn't this political? Or what do I do about these political issues? And I constantly say, "Hold on, what are you calling political?" (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. What ... Political. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? It's like-

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... hold on. (laughs) We're talking about equity, opportunity, fairness.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Support.

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Investment and in, in creating, you know, all access to all of this for all of us.

KARRAH HERRING: All of us.

JENNIFER BROWN: Know? And, and, and the state, no entity, states included, can ever be ... reach its potential if all of those pieces aren't being attended to, supported, nurtured. Um, you know, and, and tracked so that we hold ourselves accountable for making progress. Not just for some, but for all.

KARRAH HERRING: For all.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, so, you know, it, it's, it's frustrating though because people try to pull you into this-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... very binary, very polarized conversation. And, and we, people like you and I, have to continue to say, "No, no, no."

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Like, let's get out of this binary way of thinking and really understand the universal value proposition of what we're working on.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, and how, regardless of, of sort of the party of leadership, how this is sort of the rising tide lifting the boats.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: So to speak.

KARRAH HERRING: That's right. Agree 100%. It's probably why I never joined a sorority when I was in college. I just didn't wanna be like in this box of being like, "Oh, she's that girl with that group."

JENNIFER BROWN: Right.

KARRAH HERRING: I wanted to be able to just work with everybody and have fun with everybody. I'm like, this is how I've approached my work in politics. You know, whatever you guys think my politics are, I don't care. But as long as you're willing to work with me and have a conversation, a mutually beneficial conversation in a way that is constructive, I'm sit ... I will sit down with anyone. I don't care. I just wanna get to solutions for the people that I love so much. And that's Hoosiers in Indiana across the state. They're so important to me and they're important to the work that I'm doing, and I'm here to serve them. So any conversation I need to have (laughs) is serve Hoosiers. I will have it with anybody. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs) Oh my goodness, I am such a fan of yours. I see great, great things for you and you know, you're really blazing of path and you're, you're creating new models, new ways of looking at progress, new ways of tracking it and getting insight into it. Um, you know, you in partnership with the governor, like, are this ... I see this as like this beautiful working partnership and collaboration-

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: ... that I would wish for so many people doing this work. And I always say to be ... DNI practitioners, like, you need your person. You know, you need someone-

KARRAH HERRING: You need your person.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... of different identity usually.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Not always, but um, the someone where you can be like the two sides of the coin of change.

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, um-

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you, you know, envisioning you both, I think is a, is a beautiful role modeling of the, of the partnership and what it looks like and, and when it's most effective. And then the fact that you in such a short amount of time have built so much and are being viewed as the standard bearer, I think is so deserved. And-

KARRAH HERRING: Oh.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, I hope this podcast gets, you know, what you're doing out further and that you get contacted, and this is a hint for my will to change [inaudible 00:38:10]. (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs) Hello, call us.

JENNIFER BROWN: Although I hope that's okay.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: It can be a little overwhelming, but, um, I'm gonna unleash the, uh, the community to you-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... I will say. Not on you-

KARRAH HERRING: (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: ... but to you, with you. And, and, um, and I love also that you have ... you've given us some familiarity with what it's like to do this work in this environment that you're in and why it's so compelling, why it's a, um ... It's so mission driven, obviously, right? I think-

KARRAH HERRING: Absolutely.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... that those of us who seek, you know, maybe, maybe a more sort of mission aligned role with a, you know, an organization that we can connect into maybe differently.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, this is certainly very sort of purpose forward in finding yourself-

KARRAH HERRING: For sure.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... whether it's academia sometimes, but I honestly think the government pieces is, is, um, is, is a labor of, of, of love and commitment to the people of the state.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, um, and wanting that state to be better and, and, and not for profits-

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... but for impact. And, um, yes, for profits, because it's related of course, you know, but I think that there's a, there's a piece that you feel very probably fulfilled in terms of like the depth of who you're impacting on a day to day basis and why and how. So ...

KARRAH HERRING: Absolutely.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah. I want everybody to just pay attention because I think sometimes we, we limit ourselves in terms of where we think we can play.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: A- And also where we think we could get ... have our first opportunity, never having been in a domain. And I mean, you-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? And so I think the jumps-

KARRAH HERRING: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... we need to make at points in our career, from domain to domain, from industry to industry from for profit, to nonprofit, to social sector, you know these pieces make us better practitioners. And they sort of, to me, fill out the gaps in our, in our ability to kind of conceive of a system to move that system forward.

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: To bring people along and not leave people behind, to meet people where they're at.

KARRAH HERRING: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: You know, I, I see in you somebody who's sort of honed that. And then you've also honed your ability to set boundaries and sort of say, "How am I gonna, how am I gonna manage how personally involved I might want to get-"

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: "... or get because of how I identify and what I care about." But, um, but modulating that I think is important for your own sustainability. And we, we talk a lot about self-care on this podcast too, so-

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... thanks for sharing that as well.

KARRAH HERRING: Oh my gosh, you are such a gem and I'm just so honored to be able to finally chat with you. Joseph has been trying to get us, um, together since he started last year. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

KARRAH HERRING: Your calendar has been crazy. We've been trying to build this thing from scratch, but you just ... You offer up so much wisdom and so much insight, uh, for me personally, but for organizations, right? Like every organization should be reading your books and (laughs) listening to your podcast because-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.

KARRAH HERRING: ... you are helping to transform, um, the way people are experiencing work ... their work life.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right.

KARRAH HERRING: And I ... And it's important. So thank you for everything that you're doing.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you so much, Dr. Herring. Yes.

KARRAH HERRING: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Celebrating you. Thanks for joining me. And, um-

KARRAH HERRING: Yes.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... all the speed. All the god speeds and all kinds of speeds.

KARRAH HERRING: Thank you. I need it all. I need it all. (laughs)

JENNIFER BROWN: We're sending it your way and cheering you on, and I just cannot wait to see what the future holds for a leader like you. Thank you for your service.

KARRAH HERRING: Thank you for having me.

--

JENNIFER BROWN: Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

 You've been listening to The Will to Change, Uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast in iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.