Shifting Our Support: Jennifer on How to Bring All Learners Forward

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Jennifer Brown:

Hello, Will to Changers, it's Jennifer, and I sit with this question, why does it seem increasingly difficult to be in conversation with each other? And who's missing from these conversations, as a result? We all know it's become more difficult than ever to practice the imperfect art of allyship. However, we identify because there are few spaces where we can return to the building blocks of inclusion, places where we can deepen our self-awareness. We can analyze how trust is built and unearth our story, and practice both sharing and listening.

As such, we are very excited to announce the very first Better Together Conference, a series of virtual conversations and workshops aimed to fostering learning connection, trust, and empathy. With the intent of articulating a vision for true partnership that includes and enlists all of us.

So whether you're looking to level up your allyship, or aren't sure where you fit into the inclusion equation, this two-day event will enhance your competence and confidence, to hold meaningful and authentic conversations that build bridges across differences. So I would love to see any and all of you joining us for the virtual two-day event. The dates are October 18th and 19th, 2023, so it's just around the corner, and you can learn more about the conference and secure your ticket at JenniferBrownConsulting.com/better-together. That's JenniferBrownConsulting.com/better-together. We hope you'll come back to the conversations that matter.

I had a client who hired me for a keynote, and we've pushed off the keynote a couple of times because they're very concerned that the buy-in from a couple individuals is not there, and those individuals are very powerful in the structure and the seniority. And so I've been doing some coaching one-on-one with the laggards, and also with the leaders, which we'll get to in a moment, and it's made me reflect that we really have to support people differently given the level of resistance, and the loudness, the volume of the resistance, and really that the resistance to these concepts is getting traction.

There are Supreme Court decisions being made about it, companies are reacting to it, it's real. So rather than say you don't matter and your opinions don't matter, or the reasons for your resistance don't matter, or there's no room for that here, we don't have that luxury.

Doug Foresta:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and, therefore, more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now onto the episode.

Hello, and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. We're going to get into the episode in just a moment, but today's episode features the conversation between myself and Jennifer. As Jennifer talks about the importance of bringing along everyone in the organization, not just the movable middle, but also, as she calls it, the leaders and the laggards, and why a coaching approach may be just the thing that's needed to bring those two groups along and make sure that everyone is along on the DEI journey. And now onto the conversation.

Hello, welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. I am very excited, back here today is Jennifer Brown, and we're going to be talking about, well, a bunch of things, but first of all, Jennifer, always great to be with you.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you. I'm so glad we're doing this, Doug.

Doug Foresta:

Thank you. So we were chatting a little bit before we started the interview, and so you are now at 75,000. You've hit 75,000 total sales, for How to Be an Inclusive Leader. Is that correct?

Jennifer Brown:

That's correct, yes. The first and second edition. And since 2019 was when I wrote the first edition. So yeah, I'm thrilled, thrilled.

Doug Foresta:

Well, and we were saying, the number of books that hit 75,000, it's a rarefied air. It's a small club. So congratulations.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you.

Doug Foresta:

And I wanted to ask you, what do you make of the success of this book? What do you think has driven people to take a look at this? It's obviously catching on.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. And it's funny, Doug, because even the last couple of months, we're recording this here in the early part of August 2023, and the last couple of months sales have gone up. They've actually kind of doubled in the last two months. My marketing team and I are sort of just kind of rolling along doing our thing. So I can't really point to anything we've done differently, but the environment obviously has changed massively, and just continues to become more difficult for the DEI conversation and work. And there's a lot of duress. There's a lot of stress in the system.

And I think what's happening is people they're returning to and looking for models that are evergreen, that speak to, why is change not happening in the way that we thought it would? And I feel like that's exactly where I live. Why are we here? How did this happen? Why is the pendulum swinging so hard the other way? And what am I not thinking about that I should be thinking about as somebody that creates change? Because everyone that's listening to this is a change maker.

We are all students of human behavior. We are all fascinated by our own evolution, our own inability to evolve, unwillingness to evolve, speaking of the title of this podcast. What is so difficult about change and what role do things like our ego play and our feelings of scarcity play? And certainly the macroeconomic environment is telling us about scarcity every moment of every day.

So that sort of works in a subtle way on our psychology. And I do think maybe people are like, "Huh, let me return to a model that feels concrete. A structure that speaks to me without shaming me or that feels full of possibility, that feels positive, that feels like if I focus on something that I know, that's knowable, I think that might be comforting to people. And also, I think they're using the book honestly, to reach people who are really dug in right now. And the people that are dug in right now are actually extremely powerful, and they are derailing the arc of the moral universe that is long, but that it bends towards justice is definitely bending the other way.

Doug Foresta:

But it could be bent both ways.

Jennifer Brown:

I think there's a tug of war going on right now. So I think it's probably finding an audience amongst folks who are on the fence or sitting back or resistant. I hope it is. That's who I wrote it for.

Doug Foresta:

You mentioned something to me as well that I wanted to make sure brought up in the podcast, which was the famous Jack Welch from GE, the former GE CEO.

Jennifer Brown:

Infamous.

Doug Foresta:

Infamous, yes.

Jennifer Brown:

Neutron Jack as he was called.

Doug Foresta:

Yes, exactly. And he used to say, was it every year get rid of the bottom 20% of your organization?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, yeah.

Doug Foresta:

You had an interesting point about that. I wanted to see if you could share that, which relates to this, that bottom 20%.

Jennifer Brown:

Right. Well, yeah. In his world, as far as I understand it, and by the way, this has all been repudiated, his management theories and practices are in the dustbin of history. However, but I remember as a young student of all of this when I started out that we learned about the distribution curve of learners. And there's the, for lack of better words, because I love alliteration and three part lists, it's laggards, learners and leaders. And not to say any of these are pejorative, but for purposes of the structure of it, the bell curve has the big part in the middle, and then these little ends.

Like 10% is the laggards, 80% is the learners, and 10% is the leaders, I might say. So when I think about the way our attitudes towards those who were laggards on the hot topic of DEI traditionally, there was no room given to that or them, honestly. Over the years, I know many, many times pride month comes, the company hoists the flag at headquarters, they get the angry letters, but what used to happen was they would get a call.

They'd have a conversation with someone. And so that someone might be very powerful, very high up in the company, whatever, but it would be like, "Hey, if you're not on board, this is kind of where we're going." And so there was a, "We don't care," in a way that you believe this, that is your business, that is your personal values, et cetera, but the values that we uphold here are X, Y, Z.

And companies have their eye on the future and demographics, and they know, regardless of what's happening in this moment, they know that change is the only constant, and they know where that change is going. To a more diverse world to a world of younger consumers. So they know that.

But the way they would deal with the laggards, it didn't give any quarter to it, and it basically was, it's your choice, but tough, you know what. And for me, it used to be really comforting to hear that that was a hard line. It was a line in the sand. It was like, you can be here or not, it is your choice, but we are not changing. We're not going back. We're not rescinding this, whatever. So it used to feel so tremendously validating in the ways that right now we completely don't feel validated by so many brands and companies. And maybe that's unfair because I know they're going through it too, but it's very painful to feel a lack of support.

So I think that when I look back at deleting that bottom 20% back to Jack Welch's structure and strategy instead, I really think that our strategy needs to change now. And I've been doing one-on-one work. I had a client, Doug, who said, who hired me for a keynote, and we've pushed off the keynote a couple of times, because they're very concerned that the buy-in from a couple individuals is not there. And those individuals are very powerful and the structure and the seniority. And so I've been doing some coaching, one-on-one with the laggards and also with the leaders, which we'll get to in a moment. And it's made me reflect that we really have to support people differently given the level of resistance and the loudness, the volume of the resistance, and really that the resistance to these concepts is getting traction.

It is being litigated. There are supreme court decisions being made about it. Companies are reacting to it. It's real. So rather than say you don't matter and your opinions don't matter, or the reasons for your resistance don't matter, or there's no room for that here, we don't have that luxury. And in fact, I think looking back, I'm not sure that was ever the right answer, honestly. When I take a deep look at this as a practitioner, I say, wow, that may not have been the right decision. And what we learned in school around, do you invest your high posts? Do you invest in your middle performers, right? Yes. Right. Don't make the time for the laggards, lay them... Jack's parlance, right?

But we actually, I think I have to shift that thinking right now. And the one-on-one work, I say one-on-one because I don't think laggards or leaders, actually the two sort of bookends of the bell curve, they don't get what they need from a training program. We actually don't. It's not going to hit them. For the leaders, it's not going to be stimulating enough. It's not going to be 3.0. It's not going to be a sort of, okay, let's build this together, and where can we go and let's go faster conversation. It's going to be the training for the movable middle.

And then conversely, the laggard conversation is a hugely different conversation. But to give that psychological safety, to give this space, to allow for questions, to be asked to treat somebody as if they matter, regardless of why they feel like they haven't mattered in our conversations and in our work. But I think in sort of rushing forward as fast as we did and trying to gobble up everything we could over the last couple of years, and we took for granted the pace of change, we sort of said, this is our new high watermark,

And now we're learning the very painful lesson that we were never there because all of us weren't there. So it's a very painful lesson, but I do think we have to go back to the drawing board and say, okay, how are we supporting our laggards learners and leaders differentially? What kind of environment might they be able to progress in? And then what can we as a support mechanism for them, whether that's your coaches, your trainers, your internal people, how are we making space for all of those folks to move forward? That's what we want to do, but it's got to be very specific and very different.

Doug Foresta:

As you say that, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, but one of the things I hear you saying is, for example, training can be really good for the movable middle. But then when you're talking about those, like you said, the other sides of the bell curve, and especially for the laggards, the difference to me between training and coaching is coaching is more about a change process and more about inducing change. And I think we're not going to move, we're not going to move those laggards without some coaching. Would that be fair to say?

Jennifer Brown:

I think so. Yeah. And I'm really getting a lot of traction with that, and I am really excited about it. And how I think about it is, what I would recommend for organizational leaders at this moment in time is you're right that you've got to be doing all of this at once. You've got to be fostering people at different places and pulling them forward and creating some momentum. But I wouldn't slow down. You can't slow down your forward momentum because of the laggards.

And I think what's happening, because that's noisier, right? It's more powerful. It's more influential. It's becoming the whole conversation. So we're sort of throwing the baby out with the bathwater again, by canceling our programs or whatever. We're letting that drive, and I'm not going to say them. I don't like to say that we're letting that drive the agenda.

So I think resourcing a couple individuals, key individuals, resourcing them with one-on-one time with someone that's not going to make them feel like they're the flying the ointment or the problem or clueless or obstructionist or a bad person or whatever. It's not that conversation. It's honestly a very psychologically safe investing conversation. It's a call in, it's an invitation to learn. It's a place to ask anything you want. I mean, it's really... But that cannot happen in front of other people. Because I just don't think... That we haven't crossed that line. I mean, we have and we haven't, right? But I don't think we've crossed the line where I've got hecklers in my room basically standing up and being like...

Doug Foresta:

Right with the picket signs. Exactly.

Jennifer Brown:

You're going to burn in hell. My CEO agrees. No, that's not exactly happening. But the fact that it's being thought and the fact that it's being said. It used to be only thought, and now it's said. It's said in certain quarters. It's said... Chief diversity officers are hearing this. They're actually getting complaints from people about the way that they are holding a summit or bringing the affinity group leaders together for an investment of time and their strategy.

If they have a white men as Allies panel, they're getting criticized from all sides, by the way, Doug, right? They're criticized, oh, why did you put white men on a stage in a diversity event? And then they're getting criticized on the other end saying like, oh, you should never have had this event in the first place. Why are we investing in this talent and doing all this? It means less opportunity for others. So it's really this interesting, you're really stuck.

Doug Foresta:

You really can't win, right? Target found themselves recently in that spot where they were just getting it from both sides. A lot of companies. You talked about something that I thought was really interesting. Again, we were chatting beforehand and you said something about returning to what's true. And I feel like that's part of what the book... I feel like that's part of the success of your book. Can you talk about in your mind what that means about what's true?

Jennifer Brown:

What's true? Gosh, isn't that. I mean, it's not fake news. This is the truth of how humans change and evolve, how and why and how they get stuck and why they get stuck. And you and I were talking earlier about weight loss or saving money or other goals that are really hard that require a behavior change and a mindset change, and require you go forward and you slip back. And we were talking about how beating people up would never work in those scenarios. If you sign up for, I don't know, some of these extreme programs where you get yelled at.

Doug Foresta:

Be yelled at, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jennifer Brown:

By a trainer like you, lazy sack of whatever. But I don't know. Maybe it worked for some people, but I don't think for the majority of people. So yeah, I think what's true is that humans are going to human. We are ego-driven, flawed, slow to change, fearful creatures. And we're going to look out for what's ours, and we're going to make assumptions, negative assumptions about people.

So I think those things are true, and to deny them means that we are skipping over something that's going to bite us. And we're getting bitten really hard right now. Really hard. And I'm listening. I'm listening and I want to learn. And I think that should be our sort of stance at this moment, to really humble ourselves that perhaps we drove a series of truths. And speaking of truths, that was really, really hard to hear and there probably was not a resilience to hearing that people were not ready.

And you could argue, well, they're never going to be ready, so they just need to hear it. Okay, well, you're never going to be ready to eat five meals in a row, and I don't care if you get sick, and I don't care if you aren't hungry for it. I don't care. You just have to do it, that's the truth. And so you can argue, yes, okay, but I don't know about you. I've never changed because of that. I just haven't. I don't like to be forced to do anything, and I'm very stubborn in that way.

So what's true about the model of the book, I think is people get so relieved in my audiences when I say, you can be anywhere on this all at the same time. They literally love that. I mean, literally in our feedback, it's like over and over again. I can be more advanced here and more comfortable here and less comfortable here and completely locked up over here and totally self-conscious and feel bad and horrible about myself in this respect.

It is just the ability to let it breathe, let ourselves be the full humans and be proud of some things and afraid of some things and good at some things and not good at others and comfortable here, and super uncomfortable and awkward there just to allow for that. I think you just can see the breath and the oxygen in the room. And I think that the truth is in the authenticity of that. And my own authenticity too, as somebody who's completely joining, everybody that I quote teach, I'm completely there.

And so what can we come back to at the end of the day? It's also the truth of our stories, the truth of our trauma, the truth of that everybody has a diversity story. The truth of what we call marginalized or not marginalized. I think that's such a false dichotomy. And if we can get into the truth of the human experience and what has been hard for people and where they have struggled and where they may be both an insider and an outsider at the same time. Holding the truth of having experienced both headwinds and tailwinds and benefiting from certain parts of who we are, and then absolutely not benefiting from others. The ability to just hold all of that is I think a very, it's a very centered place from which to create change. And so I think that's why.

Doug Foresta:

There's a quote, I know it's Eastern philosophy. I can't remember who it is, but it basically goes something like, we have to meet the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.

Jennifer Brown:

That's beautiful and not as we wish it to be. And there's such surrender in that, Doug. When you're full of indignation, and as so many of us are, and we deserve to come from that place, it drives a certain style as a change maker. But meeting the world where it is, requires us to return to basics, and return to what's true, and not like I said earlier, not push it to the side or minimize the importance of what some folks may be feeling or bringing up.

And that's very hard, and it's very triggering too. I mean, what I'm talking about is extremely hard to do. I mean, I don't enjoy, it's interesting when I think about what challenges me, what I really enjoy. Is it preaching to the choir? Yes, it feels good in a certain way. Is it working with leaders in the change curve, right?

The leaders really stimulate me because I feel like we can create together. And then the laggards, though, honestly the sharpening of my abilities as a practitioner, that also has a kind of satisfaction to it. That meeting the world as it is perhaps the most difficult thing that we in this work ever encounter. It is the most difficult thing, and therefore it really requires our attention. And it happens to be an incredibly important right now, that we make that time, that we make that space that we go towards, that we invite, that we create an invitation and a dialogue.

But it is the hardest. And it's the hardest because I feel the way it feels for me. I feel dispirited. I feel like it's bigger than me. I feel I'm never going to be successful. So I start on the back foot feeling am I going to be heard? I think the triggering too is, the true kind of invalidation of who I am.

Going in, that doesn't feel good to go into a conversation and be like, huh, there's a very real chance right now that everything I believe in and cherish is going to feel diminished. And I don't mean to say be diminished though. Because we can hear these things and we can take them in and we can really dig deep and give grace, kindness, love, and human dignity to folks who are struggling with the message of DEI.

We can and we must. So I just want to speak to sort of noticing. I'm very kind of clear on, I'm always paying attention to when do I feel exhausted? When do I feel sharp? When do I feel on my game? When do I feel stimulated like I could do this all day long? And sometimes those really hard conversations are amazing conversations. And I think we tend to forget or we avoid or we say, well, history will take care of them. That has been, honestly, that was what I was taught. I really think that was the message I've received as a learner, as a student, and then as a teacher sort of forget about that. It'll work itself out. You have no obligation there.

Doug Foresta:

And we're seeing the consequence of that now.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, really hard. Really, really hard. So that's why I'm kind of sharing with everybody listening. I don't know the answers to this. I've never encountered something like this before. It does feel like we're going back to, I won't even say 2019. I'd say this is kind of way back. The pendulum is swinging so hard.

Okay, so then how are you listening to this going to change your strategy? How are you and how are we going to get comfortable being uncomfortable again? Because if we're comfortable in preaching to the choir, we're actually not focusing on where we the high value areas that we really need to focus on.

Doug Foresta:

And I think as I hear you say this, I think a coaching approach, and that's kind of been your roots, Jennifer, right? Organizational leadership and coaching. Again, just going back really where you started, it comes...

Jennifer Brown:

I know it's so weird, but I love it.

Doug Foresta:

I think a coaching approach really is perfect for the laggards because people are not their beliefs, right. Beliefs are not immutable. Listen, there's going to be some people who are never going to take the journey and that's that. But I don't think that's the full 10%. Do you?

Jennifer Brown:

I don't think so. No. I would never put it at that number. I wouldn't. And then the leaders, the coaching for the leaders is so important also to enable them and encourage them. If somebody's out there on a limb every day, say they're an incredible ally in training and they're really swinging for the fences and really putting their capital at risk and play and really comfortable being uncomfortable and just being super awesome. I think those are treasures for us right now. And honestly, just even just the emotional support, the mutual emotional support of being in a community of people...

Doug Foresta:

When you're that far ahead, it's a small group, right. It's lonely at the top of you're doing this visionary work.

Jennifer Brown:

It feels really good to just look at each other and witness each other being amazing and courageous, and know the courage that went into what we choose to do and what we say every day. It just really feels... I feel so much gratitude for people who are the leaders in this moment. And so just beyond just plugging in your outlet to another power source, which just is wonderful and wind in the sails and all that, it's also to support never taking those folks for granted, and really enlisting those leaders to go back into the movable middle and the laggards, and begin to coach and begin to pull forward and begin to foster and invite.

And a lot of the stuff that I was talking about be in a one-on-one relationship. I think they can be unleashed in a way too, but importantly with a certain energy. It can't be the angry energy. I don't think that works very well. It can't be the indignant energy. It can't be the, "How dare you," energy. And I'm not even sure really the business case stuff, Doug, again, I put a lot of faith in that over the years, and it's been a really rude awakening about the limitations of it...

Doug Foresta:

Well the problem is business case, I think is cerebral.

Jennifer Brown:

That's the problem. It's disembodied from the day to day, right?

Doug Foresta:

Yeah, that's not how we make challenges. That's not how we really make changes as human beings. It has to hit our heart somewhere for us to make those changes.

Jennifer Brown:

You're so right. And you're right. It's completely intellectual. It's also super abstract. It's like, oh, these companies, and I'm guilty. I put this in my book. I've put these things in my book. These companies have a better shareholder return that have X number of women on their existing executive. It's just so like, okay. I mean, yes, so important, but I think we have to face the fact that it has not convinced, at scale it hasn't. And I don't know what will convince.

I love speaking about the diversification and the growth of non-male, non-white markets and customers and consumers and the buying power and the decision makers. So just purely just looking at also the attitudes of the up and coming generations and the expectations around inclusion and the want to really matter. I am encouraged that is going to bring a massive sea change, and it's still happening.

It's not like the resistance has quelled that. If it has quelled anything, it's temporary. And I don't know how long this is going to go for. So it's interesting to kind of see that tsunami coming. But yet not really feel its effects. And then feel like what we're dealing with right now is resistance amongst a certain generation, certain identities that is here and now, and very powerful. So it's like you're dealing with this thing that's going to work itself out, actually demographically speaking, but it hasn't yet. And what we're trying to do, what to do is make room for this tidal wave to come through.

There's a jetty, and the tidal wave is coming and it's banging up against the jetty, and you're trying to take the jetty apart so that the water can come through, but it's thwarted. And by the way, this is so bad for companies, so bad. It's so much wasted energy. That wave is powerful. Let it have the momentum that it has, don't block.It is not helpful for the creativity and innovation of an organism to have this thwarting effect on new thought and new ways of looking at problems and next gen ideas. And it's really bad.

But unfortunately, Doug, these are invisible costs. We've always struggled to quantify the bottom line impact of the thwarted idea engine and the talent coming in and their belonging. The role of how comfortable they are in a system or not, and how that impacts creativity and innovation. How that impacts retention and performance and trust and all those things that power business. So we're really, at this time, I think of sort of stifled, stifled and stifling binary energy that's going on. And it's really not good for everyone. And funny enough, Gen X is a little bit stuck in the middle as usual.

Doug Foresta:

I know. We always end up... Yeah, exactly.

Jennifer Brown:

We're always the ones that are watching the tennis match. Hey, we might want to think about it, but you know what? I don't know. Maybe we have a real gift and a real legacy given our generational identity to make sense of this moment and try to keep our eyes on the prize, which is really the future. And this is a moment in time, but it's a moment for courage.

Doug Foresta:

I wanted to ask you, because I think you've made a really good case that organizations need to do more. They need to do something different. And we talked about coaching. I wanted to ask you if somebody's listening to this and they're saying, that makes sense to me, we would love to coach our laggards and leaders. Does JBC and or you offer coaching? And if so, how would people inquire about that?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. Oh my goodness, thank you. Well, so reach out to us at info@jenniferbrownconsulting.com. We're making it, I think, very affordable. And honestly, it could be me, it could be somebody else on my team who are all really talented. One-on-one conversations. And it doesn't even need to be something elaborate. I don't think this is a huge monetarily or time-wise. It's not a huge investment.

When we think about executive coaching, we think about six month engagements and we think about massive commitment, and that would be great, and we do that as well. But I think this is more targeted. This is like, how can we get somebody on board that's really important to the effort? And how can we make an investment in them? And it could be a couple of hours of time. It could be some time in person, because honestly, I don't love this Zoom call sandwiched in between a very busy day kind of thing. I don't think that's how humans change.

So we approach it in some very creative ways that I think are just enough to unlock some things and get somebody moving in the right direction, nudging things in the right direction. And then maybe it is sort of check-ins and spot support as somebody goes. But at least they have somebody external to trust with their questions and their doubts and all of that, all of what we've been talking about. I think that's important too, whether it's us or somebody else. And I don't think this is the majority of leaders. I think this is a small handful, but that handful deserves everything I've said today. It's how have we, are we proud of the way that we've managed and invited everyone? I don't think... We have a lot of unfinished business, I think. So leaders, don't slow down your strategy.

Keep pushing, keep supporting that movable middle. Keep investing in those leaders and turning them into coaches. But really task yourself with thinking about those laggards, I'd say. And thinking about making an investment there of some kind that is private, that is really an investment in a safe space and a confidential space. Because I do think that that will pay huge dividends and may not at the moment.

Maybe right now things are just too tough. But I think thinking long-term. You never know, I always say this, Doug, your biggest resistor can become your biggest champion. That can happen. It can happen. It can happen quickly or not. It can happen because of maybe 10 different things, but we got to get really creative with the approach. And I think the good news is I think we've got a lot of tools in our arsenal to do this. And it honestly is kind of the next work for practitioners. We've got to get really good at this because we're not going to get out of this for a while.

Doug Foresta:

And I just want to say to people, if you have not picked up the second edition of, "How to Be Inclusive," what are you waiting for?

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, yes, please,

Doug Foresta:

Jennifer. We'll have to have you back when you get to a hundred thousand in books.

Jennifer Brown:

What a great goal. Thank you, Doug, and thanks everybody on The Will to Change and hang in there. I just want to say everyone that's listening to this, it feels really, really hard right now. And these are these moments of difficulty that sharpen our saw, right? They sharpen our intellect. They sharpen and deepen our hearts, I think, and they call on us. I loved your quote, Doug, the meeting the world where it's at with, if I could finish that sentence, it's with love, it's with grace, it's with kindness, it's with seeing people, and we're going to get so much further with that energy.

So if you're struggling to have that energy right now, I understand and I'm with you, but what a good reminder and what an opportunity.

Doug Foresta:

Thank you so much, Jennifer. Thanks as always.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you.

Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over@jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work. And discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Doug Foresta:

You've been listening to The Will to Change, uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit Jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.