Scaling Inclusive Leadership in a Doubting World: Jennifer Joins Chuck Shelton on the Courage Counts Program

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Jennifer Brown:

Hello Will to Changers. It's Jennifer and I sit with this question, why does it seem increasingly difficult to be in conversation with each other and who's missing from these conversations as a result. We all know it's become more difficult than ever to practice the imperfect art of allyship, however we identify because there are few spaces where we can return to the building blocks of inclusion, places where we can deepen our self-awareness. We can analyze how trust is built and unearth our story and practice both sharing and listening.

As such, we are very excited to announce the very first Better Together Conference, a series of virtual conversations and workshops aimed to foster in learning, connection, trust, and empathy, with the intent of articulating a vision for true partnership that includes and enlists all of us. Whether you're looking to level up your allyship or aren't sure where you fit into the inclusion equation, this two-day event will enhance your competence and confidence to hold meaningful and authentic conversations that build bridges across differences.

I would love to see any and all of you joining us for the virtual two-day event. The dates are October 18th and 19th, 2023. It's just around the corner. You can learn more about the conference and secure your ticket at jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. That's jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. We hope you'll come back to the conversations that matter.

Everyone has a diversity story, even if your story that you're telling and the way that you enter this whole dialogue is through stories about your privileges, that is still really, really powerful too. I do it all the time and I'm trying to role model that all the time because clearly, I might be LGBTQ, I might be female, cisgender female, my pronouns are she, her in a very sort of cisgender male-dominated world, but I'm also an insider in that world. How am I leveraging that?

That is a conversation we have not been having and I'm trying to have it wherever I can because what I'm trying to do is really, really broaden the tent and say, you're needed here. You belong here. You belong in this conversation. There's so much you can be doing and you matter in this. I think we need to kind of turn some attention to that.

Doug Foresta:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore, more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results.

Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. Now, onto the episode.

Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. This episode that you're about to hear was originally recorded on the Courage Counts program and features a conversation between Jennifer and Chuck Shelton as they discuss how to scale inclusive leadership when DEI is being doubted and even weaponized.

Jennifer discusses how to assertively drive DEI as a business growth strategy and how to create psychological safety for resistant leaders. You also hear about the importance of practicing situational allyship and how to let DEI success happen through vertical leadership in organizations. All this and more and now, onto the episode.

Chuck Shelton:

When it comes to expanding numbers of people who are leading more inclusively in an organization, from your view, Jennifer, what makes it challenging to scale inclusive leadership?

Jennifer Brown:

What makes it challenging? Well, I think a couple things. First of all, we have centered and located the work in a what is called a DEI team. It goes by various names, but it's always been this weird tension, I think, between, we want to make sure this is an organizational priority and as such, a logical answer to that would be to have a dedicated team who are kind of the watchdogs, are kind of the subject matter experts and bringing that thought leadership.

Technically, I guess, how it's supposed to work is they hold leaders accountable for their involvement. I mean, that's it, right? Then, the leaders sort of grudgingly, they check the box and they do as little as possible. They are very passive. They're very kind of in the receiving stance of the requirements, if you will. That sets up this energy that I don't think is what we want, as much as I am a fan though, of having a dedicated resources and professionals. I'm not saying I'm not a fan of that, it's just this tension.

The problem, I think, with how we've gone about it, I mean, there's many problems, I think, in hindsight particularly over the last couple of years and given what's happening now, I think we're all kind of wondering like, "Did we work this strategy in the right way? Did we set this up right because this backlash really, really hurts, really hurts? Did we have a part to play and how bad it is and how extreme it is?" I know I'm kind of racking my brain and my heart around all the things that I've ever been taught, all the things that I've taught clients, all the things that I've really operated under the assumptions.

Anyway, to answer your question, the centering of that I think has led to this passive participation. This is why I wrote the How To Be Inclusive Leader book with the model in it, which squarely puts a responsibility of leaders and invites those leaders to their own transformation, invites them to evolve, gives them a path that's nonjudgmental, opens up that possibility that you can be very knowledgeable about certain identities and not about others.

That, what I really want to bring into being is a safe place to learn. I also think it's become very fraught to experiment and we, as humans, we learn through experimentation. We change our behavior through small efforts that become bigger efforts, but if we kill the seedling while it's trying to get its roots in the ground, and we say, "No seedling. You're ugly. You don't matter. You're never going to be anything and you're never going to understand this."

By the way, you're not diverse, which is not a thing, that is not bringing people along. I think, unfortunately or fortunately, it's all sort of up to the history books. We have really, really had a tight focus on certain diversity dimensions and we've needed to because those are [inaudible 00:07:28] full stop and we have somehow that strategy and it makes sense actually, it's very logical now looking at it all, has left out a bunch of folks who identify in a certain way, but I would also argue have a lot of experience of exclusion just defined differently.

I do think, too, that we have needed to walk and chew gum at the same time all these years of really, really being inclusive ourselves of the contribution that everybody can make and also the personal story and experience of inclusion and exclusion that most humans on this planet have had and yet, has not really been identified as something that needed to be resourced or something that could be a potential tool in somebody's toolbox in terms of leading inclusively, that sort of self-reflection.

Everyone has a diversity story. Even if your story that you're telling and the way that you enter this whole dialogue is through stories about your privileges, that is still really, really powerful too. I do it all the time and I'm trying to role model that all the time because clearly, I might be LGBTQ, I might be female, cisgender female, my pronouns are she, her in a very cisgender male-dominated world, but I'm also an insider in that world. How am I leveraging that?

That is a conversation we have not been having and I'm trying to have it wherever I can because what I'm trying to do is really, really broaden the tent and say, "You're needed here. You belong here. You belong in this conversation. There's so much you can be doing and you matter in this." I think we need to kind of turn some attention to that.

Chuck Shelton:

So many things you said, one of the words that jumps into my mind from it is the word contained. We've contained the DEI agenda inside a structure, a definitional location in the organization and that makes its own sense, but has institutionalized that subject matter expertise instead of, for example, being a center of excellence, where it's about content and program and people bringing stuff to me, and me thinking differently about slates and learning new skills, but still kind of on the margin, as compared to where you went in the later part of your comment about personal responsibility and ownership for each person, and breaking out of the container, not in a way that loses focus, but widens the nature of inclusion to literally include everyone, including people who may look like you or me who were actively excluding ourselves from DEI by calling it woke or thinking it's a political correctness, or presuming a new victim status, or win-lose, or that it's a meritocracy, and therefore, I should be where I am. I mean, there's so many [inaudible 00:10:27] and onto the next thing.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, I know. I love how you've always written, Chuck, about the doubters, the ones and what the narrative is that's going through people's minds. That is so important to name and I've been thinking a lot about that in the past, we've shut it down, we've denied it, we've shut it down...

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, that's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... we've told it to shut up, we've sidelined it. If you have a problem with pride in the way that our company celebrates it and hoist the flag, then you can leave. That has been the answer. I have to admit, that answer felt really good in the past for me, somebody in the community. I love when a company has my back like that. I love it.

I mean, it feels incredibly validating and vindicating and supportive. I mean, it makes me feel important, right? Important enough to say, "We've got your back and we will remove the detractors," but that is a very much a command and control though approach.

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

I think what the backlash is happening and telling us as it gains steam and voice and volume, as there's more sort of credence given to it, it's been there the whole time. It is now finding voice and looking back, again, hindsight, I wish we had given it more oxygen and I don't mean we don't agree with it by giving it oxygen. It's not agree, disagree.

Chuck Shelton:

Right, right.

Jennifer Brown:

It's really not about that. It is about putting some sunlight on the doubts, the resistance, the there's not enough for me, the scarcity, the I'm being passed over, the I don't have anything to give to this. I can't relate. We really, and the broader definitions of diversity would have included people more proactively, I think too. Again, sort of an interesting moment for us to pause in this work and say, "What worked that we have done and what hasn't worked."

The other thing that hasn't worked, I don't know about you, but the business case that I put so much stock in and that I was told and trained to lead with, has not convinced, has not. Somehow, we didn't craft that in an effective way. It doesn't mean it's not true, but it may not be as effective of a change tool as we thought it would be. What is more compelling? That's the question I want to sit with every day.

Chuck Shelton:

Good. Well, actually the next question that I was hoping we could talk about is what are the practices on that side that help us go faster, go deeper, widen the scale of engaging people? One that comes to mind, from what you just said, is we need to revisit how we think about data because we structured the business case and many cases there's more data certainly about talent and some degree, about other aspects of organizational life like sales, customer retention, working with communities, regulators, other stakeholders.

There's certainly more data than there has been and certainly more of it's being published and yet, the numbers aren't necessarily changing even with the availability of the data. It feels to me like a conversation about measurement and what measures are meaningful, not just representational data as useful and limited as that is. As that as an example, what have you seen? Sounds like people owning their story or the practices that can help us scale the development of inclusive leaders.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, it's a good point. The data hasn't, and funny enough, we've been asked for more and more data, Chuck, constantly.

Chuck Shelton:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

It's sort of like, "Look over here. Just give us more data and then we'll believe this...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... and then we'll [inaudible 00:14:23] it hasn't worked.

Chuck Shelton:

No.

Jennifer Brown:

It's been a distraction mechanism. Worse, it's been like a, "Hey, look over here so that we don't have to really do the work. We're just going to bury you and request for more data, more business case, convince us, whatever." No. I'm tired of it. To me and you, it tells an emergency of a story that needs fixing. Look, the only message that matters is one that's received. We can believe all day long that it's compelling, but it doesn't matter.

I go back to the individual behavioral change. I go back to the need for leaders to be relevant going into the future. I go back to appealing to that sense of survival and thriving for leaders of every identity to say, "What will enable you to lead better?" It is an understanding of getting results from people across difference, which fundamentally has its basis in trust and in people feeling they can be their full selves and therefore they can thrive, they can relax, they can feel comfortable in a given environment.

I mean, I think that's paramount and particularly challenging for leaders, of course, in this hybrid world because now, we're trying to do this and establish trust and intimacy in a business sense when we're very distributed. Even more difficult than it has ever been, but I think that's the opportunity to appeal to leaders' sense of relevance and being equipped to succeed in the future. It's a bit of what's in it for me.

I think that's helpful and also then, somehow, we need to redefine this, what is my role? Can I be helpful? How can I be helpful when I haven't had the same lived experience as others? Do I matter? How do I matter? I just think we've got to nail that down and I've been trying to, I really have, and show that path forward and then create psychological safety, not just for those of us who have struggled to feel psychological safety in the organization, but there is a new cohort that's not feeling psychologically...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... to learn. It has to apply to all of us. We can't just say, "I need psychological safety as an [inaudible 00:16:48]."

Chuck Shelton:

Right, right. You [inaudible 00:16:49] so much.

Jennifer Brown:

Right. We can't resent people and say, "Well, you don't deserve psychological safety. I don't care if you're feeling afraid."

Chuck Shelton:

Well, or is it-

Jennifer Brown:

The fear is information.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, or the presumption that privilege equals psychological safety in a way-

Jennifer Brown:

Right, right.

Chuck Shelton:

When you haven't even worked the architecture of what accumulated advantage in your own life looks like, so you feel like a privilege is an accusation that really shouldn't stick to you. Then, a whole another level of assuming that your privilege is therefore makes you safe. Wow, you lost me at privilege. I mean...

Jennifer Brown:

Wow.

Chuck Shelton:

... it's not so simple. We've started pairing psychological standing and psychological safety because it invites everybody to think about the me in it, what's in it for me? How do I stand? Where's my voice and agency with everyone, especially those of us maybe who are from every point of advantage like I am, who might think therefore I don't really have a place in this.

Like you said, to the seedling metaphor, I love that earlier if everyone's a seedling in this garden, everyone's got to get nurtured and the presumption that yeah, you've got all the water and dirt you need to grow, it just isn't necessarily accurate and it means, we have to talk, we have to think about the ecosystem and we have to individualize it.

That's, I think, a challenge for the scaling part, is how do we recognize there's strategies and metrics and positioning in the organization and communications were all kind of the big levers to pull around DEI as a strategy, and we're acutely aware of how the energy in it and the momentum in it comes from individual hearts and minds being changed.

I mean, I think of executives that we work with that have been a part of an executive sponsor for an ERG that's just changed their lives or they have somebody on their staff who uses the word queer and it's completely challenging to them because it's not a word they would ever use and now they get to learn how, or to globalize the conversation and say, "Well, it's illegal to be X in that place. How do we do this?"

For me, I think one of the things that's part of the wind that's from the right direction, not in our faces, is the curiosity and the empathy, it feels to me there's some fundamental things that aren't aligned what we call DEI and identify as identity points like actually caring for other human beings as a function of leadership work and being committed to improving and to critical thinking. We're suffering, I think, on all three of those fronts right now and to some degree, as fundamental or underlying to what DEI can become.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, I think DEI needs to really maybe morph into something that's, look, we all want it to survive. We want the work to survive. What we call it, I don't know if that matters as much, we all know what the work is, but you just did it live. You just made up different language. Languages really matters and in this case, rather than digging in and sort of being defined and protecting it...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... I think we need to work on this.

Chuck Shelton:

That's so good. That's really good.

Jennifer Brown:

This is a moment. Then, I think, more role models, Chuck, of unlikely inclusive leaders like those who have really taken this on board, like you talked about the executive sponsor who is transformed, who has changed, because of the people they've gotten to know, because of the stories they've heard and they carry now with them, because of the way they've learned how to story tell about their own hidden diversity [inaudible 00:20:37], right?

Chuck Shelton:

Yes, right.

Jennifer Brown:

If we could, somehow, you talked about scaling and it does feel hard to scale what we're talking about, because it is person by person. It's the kid throwing the starfish back in the ocean one by one by one by one. It's endless. I know you feel like you're the starfish thrower. I know I do too. I can save one.

Chuck Shelton:

Love you starfish. Love you.

Jennifer Brown:

We're exhausted. I do think leaders, the messenger matters as much as the message and that's more homework I would give our field to consider the messenger. I think coming out of the last couple of years, we have looked at messengers and we've said, "Well, we need more representation in the messengers of black and brown faces, and people with disabilities and people with non-binary identities and all those missing identities."

That is super important. I would sort of put that here. A leader standing up that looks like you, who's competent, confident, passionate, has done your homework, and knows how to talk about it, and is calling in other leaders...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... that look like you, there is a very quick path there, I think, to behavior change, quicker than I might be able to sort of force through the organization with one kind of set of remarks, a leader that is an unlikely champion of inclusion and diversity because of what they look like and what people assume and how they assume they identify...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right. That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... because by the way, everybody knows something about diversity. If we define this more broadly, there is not a leader in any identity that...

Chuck Shelton:

Totally right.

Jennifer Brown:

... doesn't have something really powerful to say but is not thinking it is relevant or has some shame around it, or is like, "Jennifer, why would I ever share that," or "Why does it matter," or "Who would it impact?" I mean, the seedling within us, we squash the seedling. We squash it.

Chuck Shelton:

That's right. That's so good.

Jennifer Brown:

It never gets the chance to feel the warmth of the sun and it never gets a chance to be heard and do its change in the world. It just never gets a chance. I think we are our own worst enemies too, and I understand why, but I really, really think we've got to invite leaders that are unlikely champions to step forward and then we need to market the heck out of that.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, I mean, I think the-

Jennifer Brown:

That's what I feel like.

Chuck Shelton:

It almost feels to me like part of the answer to scaling and that you know when it's happening is when more authentic stories are being told with more traction. They're more viral. They're efficient.

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:23:32].

Chuck Shelton:

It's not an article or a book, it's a blog or a comment or a business focused, here's what I learned, here's what I did in the business, here's what I did it with, kind of a talk. I do think the scaling is getting traction when more and more senior leaders are doing this because then, by definition, I mean, anybody as a people manager that has a team on up to the C-suite is thinking not only hopefully how do I do it and how do I do it with my team, but they're thinking, how do I do it in the business? How do I do it with customers? I think that's where the scaling happens is when people get hold of it.

Another challenge I see, and so the opportunity comes through to how do you know when it's working is when DEI functions are not white knuckling the enterprise level of DEI work so much that they're not letting it turn loose in the business units and markets and globally. When my experience is when business unit leaders get hold of it and it becomes real, they start thinking about inside their subcultures, their metrics, their results.

It's a little bit of a pressure or sometimes real angst for the DEI leaders who feel maybe their standing is being challenged. I think that's another positioning and a rethinking place for us in DEI work, is how do I ensure the alignment and strength through the enterprise work in a way that I also get out of the freaking way for business leaders. We're ready to drive this vertically because when they do, to me, that's what I see behaviorally is the answer is that when leaders, at all levels, especially at the top say, "We're going to get good at this."

I remember a CFO who concocted a mentoring program and he had a well-lived point of view around DEI. He wanted to move more women into senior roles. He worked with his team to develop a mentoring program that wouldn't only focus on women, but definitely did focus on making sure more women had opportunities to move up and be seen. He didn't even talk to the chief diversity officer about it until it was mostly baked. Then, he realized, "Oh my gosh, I really should talk to her."

Jennifer Brown:

Oh gosh.

Chuck Shelton:

The chief diversity officer's response was twofold. One was like, "How dare you do something and not talk to me," and then right on the heels of that, that was, "How lovely that you did something without talking to me," because then, it's that move from I can't move at all without you telling me what to do, which is part of that trap.

Two, I'm so engaged that I have to remember to engage you as an advisor and as a source. To me, that's the kind of evidence of like, "This is starting to work because it scales, because the people who can scale stuff are getting hold of it."

Jennifer Brown:

That's so cool. I love that. I can feel as people are listening to this, the diversity leaders are having that dual response, which is we want [inaudible 00:26:34].

Chuck Shelton:

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

It justifies our existence and...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... make us feel critical, but at the same time, the teaching to fish metaphor is relevant here.

Chuck Shelton:

In this case, the fish is the budget and our budgets inside DEI will never be big enough to do all the things that they...

Jennifer Brown:

For sure.

Chuck Shelton:

... want done. Our budgets are [inaudible 00:26:54] experiences as an external organizations have DEI budgets, some of which just spend with my company, is that when you work out that right balance on the scaling work and you let it go and stay in service to the vertical development of the work, not only is your budget likely to be in a much better position, but there are other people starting to spend their own money on the same stuff.

That's a way better deal because now, the total resources going to the organization around DEI are starting to expand because DEI is now adding business value and personal value rather than it only being seen as an enterprise commitment that that's cost.

Jennifer Brown:

That's right. The emotional labor, I mean, when we talk about fatigue and burnout amongst [inaudible 00:27:41] leaders...

Chuck Shelton:

Oh my gosh.

Jennifer Brown:

... it is because we don't have the kind of partnership that...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... you're talking about where business leaders...

Chuck Shelton:

Totally right.

Jennifer Brown:

... are actually beginning to carry the water for the change and then, we can move into the advisor role. You know the RACI model? I love the RACI model.

Chuck Shelton:

Uh-huh, yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

Responsible, accountable, consulted and informed. Can we, as the sort of center of excellence, be like that SWAT team and that internal consultant but not owning and not necessarily when the help is needed in determining but not necessarily driving or not necessarily accountable. Yes, accountable and not responsible for, because it's impossible to sit in a central function like this and understand each part of the whole business. It's impossible.

Chuck Shelton:

[inaudible 00:28:32].

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, we should know a little bit about a lot of things and we have to because we are a hub. At the same time, if something is built organically by a function, they know their business best, they know the levers to pull, they know what the business case is for that function because by the way, DEI priorities and problems and challenges are different, function to function...

Chuck Shelton:

Totally, right.

Jennifer Brown:

... to country, to multinational struggle with this all the time, the American way of doing it, this version. It's this really incredibly challenging role because you want to have a job at the end of the day, but you want people to utilize you in the right way...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... to lean on you in the right way for the right purposes at the right time. You are essentially kind of spreading yourself really thin, but this is why I think we probably struggle with it ourselves maybe with a little bit of that control or relevance.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the mix of that agency and voice. We want to be able to contribute the most that we can. I think you asked the what's in it for me question earlier, maybe one way to think about, we're motivated to and know we're succeeding with scaling inclusive leadership development when the price that we're paying for the role that we're in, is starting to get it lower and with a healthier role to be in.

Jennifer Brown:

I love that, [inaudible 00:30:00].

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah. I mean, I know that one of the numbers that may not be in someone's performance objectives as a CDO but as relevant to this point is how many influence partners do you have in the business that are not just carrying water for you, but are carrying their own water and expecting you to help? When that starts to multiply, then that's the one quantification of traction and scaling and you pay a different kind of price because this is hard work and it's a hard work right now for sure. It's a lower better price as other people are paying it with you.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, the influence partners, that's so key. How are you investing in your, I think, of you often with the laggards, learners, leaders conversation we've always had Chuck, and I've been thinking a lot about the one-on-one investment that is needed to shore up those leaders because they are that small percentage of people who are your influence champions.

They're your people who you know you can go to, that you've fostered, invested in, that they've been ready, that they've been on, tell me what help is needed and I'm equipped and I'm prepared to offer that help. They are the sort of high potential partners. Then, you've got the laggards who are the ones that are dragging things back but also need an investment of time...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... and energy in a particular way to address their fears, their doubts about initiatives, their own sort of personal scarcity that they're in, and to unlock what they could be and who they could be. I just think it's still so fascinating to think about the bell curve of change, and the movable middle.

Chuck Shelton:

I mean, that's a practical visual for what scaling looks like. It's you're moving the middle. You're trying to move the middle of the curve that's in it that's open and saying, "I like the sound of it, I think, but I'm not quite how I'm in it or I'm not quite sure how it's safe to be in it."

Ultimately, because the pressure for reorgs and expense management and complexity of global work and everything going on the news cycle, I think another opportunity for us in this work is to live every day with it comes back to the, what's in it for me, how does it sell people do their job and get their results, as it compared to being a box check or a program to have.

You know it's working when you see somebody say something like, "This isn't what I thought it was and now I'm applying it in the area that nobody in the DEI office ever thought to mention because they don't even know what I'm talking about." I think of a group of engineers that we're working with and they're thinking about inclusion as a function of agile programming and how do you get better ideas faster, or all the ideas faster so you can delete the ones that aren't good ideas or you're not ready for, but it's like it fuels the engine and inclusion is a way to get everybody in. Who aren't we talking to? Who haven't we heard from?

These are inclusion questions inside a programming world and nobody in DEI would necessarily even think to ask or apply. Actually, one of my most perverse enjoyments is when you see somebody in a part of a business start to, like in finance, I've seen a CFO say, "Well, if I'm going to DEI, my question should be how does DEI help us save money? How does DEI help us have more efficient processes?" Those might make a CDO uncomfortable with the presumption that the answer would be, "We'll have a smaller DEI budget." That's not been my experience and it's fascinating.

It's perverse, but I love to see a business leader or a market leader get hold of DEI and start doing things with it that completely mystify me and my colleagues. I mean, I don't even understand what they're talking about. I don't get the measure, but there they go.

Jennifer Brown:

There they go.

Chuck Shelton:

They're doing DEI now.

Jennifer Brown:

It's incredible. I mean, you know how-

Chuck Shelton:

The fact that I don't understand it, who cares?

Jennifer Brown:

Right, exactly. I mean, and how amazing would it be to be a center of excellence who's not just pushing out best practices, but collecting best practices from the business units...

Chuck Shelton:

Totally.

Jennifer Brown:

... and collecting it, pulling it into the center and saying, "Where else can I suggest now this innovation that happened over here? Where can I now propagate that?" That's scaling too, because it worked over here, let me take that concept and that principle, add it to my toolkit as an advisor...

Chuck Shelton:

Love that. I love that.

Jennifer Brown:

... and then go forward and say, "Well, have you thought about approaching it this way to this unit and that unit?" We become a hub of ideas and innovations that aren't just originating with us.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, so good.

Jennifer Brown:

I think that that, but again, that kind of threatens that, "I'm a thought leader and a subject matter expert," I think we really have to redefine, I mean, I'll say this-

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, I mean, so-

Jennifer Brown:

... as a writer, I love other people's ideas. I mean, I can take those and run with them and propagate them, and I don't have to come up with everything myself, nor could I.

Chuck Shelton:

I mean, I love that as an example of a practice to scale because we become the storytellers, the story collectors. I'm a little leery of the best practice language because I'm not sure that always translates, but I think so often about the conversations I have with the global conversations I have with people, literally everywhere, the people in London are the most befuddled to encounter anyone who thinks the center of the world is not London, but everybody's got their own version of it.

When they encounter us as Americans who many times we don't know we're Americans, we haven't really thought about our nationality as an identity point to make it a global agenda, but not only permit, but expect learning to come from what's happening in Israel or India or Malaysia or China or wherever. Then, watching what happens when people hear Americans say, "Well, what's working for you in Ireland?" The Irish will just go, "No one's ever, I never heard American ask that question before," but it's the same spirit.

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:36:12].

Chuck Shelton:

It's just like, "Well, if it works in Beijing, what can we learn about what's happening there that we can use somewhere else?" That is a different kind of influence for us as DEI professionals for sure, than the subject matter expertise, let me tell you about X, and I don't think it's necessarily not continuing to learn about neurodiversity or areas that's certainly been a part of my key learning in the last couple of years and to become the storytellers, story collectors have story connectors.

Have you over here thought about what your peer at this executive level is doing over here and then get out of the way and let them go at it. That feels to me like a way to shift how we're positioned from the traps that you talked about earlier, and also think about scaling the work.

Jennifer Brown:

You know what's interesting, the image that's coming to mind that you're talking about is how we often describe effective allyship. It is knowing when to step in. It's knowing when to step aside...

Chuck Shelton:

I like that.

Jennifer Brown:

... and it's knowing when to step back. It's knowing when to center another storyteller because that person's story is needed in the moment and curating that, and maybe silently, maybe unseen, putting something forward and saying, "You know what? I'm not the optimal resource at this moment."

Chuck Shelton:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

It takes tremendous humility and I think maturity to understand what is needed from me at this moment and that can be sometimes in direct contrast to I need to be viable. I need to make sure I'm always the center of attention and that I'm seen as integral, when it's sometimes being integral means that you are leading quietly, that you are stepping...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right. So good.

Jennifer Brown:

... to the side. This is how I define allyship actually. The big question...

Chuck Shelton:

Jennifer-

Jennifer Brown:

... when do I know when to step in? I always feel as when I'm teaching this particularly to white male executives, I wish I could wrap it up more neatly, but it's not like a binary answer. It's not like, "Do this, don't do this."

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, it's a competence.

Jennifer Brown:

It really depends. It just depends and the sensitivity we're talking about that you develop over time as you begin to understand, I have this power because of my seniority, because of the identity I hold, or whatever, the privileges, the advantages I have in the system.

I can wield it in certain ways from certain directions, and some ways are overt, some are covert, some are quiet, some are loud, but being able to shapeshift around the issue and be able to kind of tackle it through yourself or through someone else, like you are the driving factor, but it appears, it shows up in a different way from a different direction. We have to be incredibly creative and low ego I think too, to be willing to consider where we can support from below, even if we are a senior person, we are still supporting from below.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, right.

Jennifer Brown:

It's really interesting to think about it that way.

Chuck Shelton:

I think that almost like institutional allyship is in interpersonal relationships, that step in, step aside, step back formulation is so helpful. I love that. Then, to think about it from a strategic leadership perspective, how do I step in, step aside and step back in the system, in the culture, in ways that, and on both of our models, for how inclusive leaders develop.

The stages that are farther in, are those places where we, ourselves, are making decisions about how we intervene, how we go quiet, how we make sure that somebody else's voice is the one that's heard about policies and practices and persistent, painful realities like African-American people consistently being rated lower in performance ratings and no one seems to know how to solve for it.

I mean, there's just so many pain points that are so systemic in nature. Nobody gets up in the morning and says, "I'm going to make sure the black people on my team get lower ratings." Nobody says that. Over and over and over again-

Jennifer Brown:

Why is it happening?

Chuck Shelton:

It happens all the time because there's fundamental stuff that's woven in that you can't tease out with a webinar or a conversation. You got to get in there and think about it institutionally and have the patience and the courage to keep going and have people to do it with. I like that frame of allyship being widened or we've kind of been talking about, contained to wider here as a way of thinking about scaling, just thinking about it allyship that way too. It's like how do I become an ally, and use my competence as an ally institutionally when it comes to systems and culture and brand.

Jennifer Brown:

You have to just choose which game you're playing at any given moment. I think if you're the one in the room and you have the stripes and the power, right...

Chuck Shelton:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

... and you're the only one that's going to say something...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... you got to be ready to say something and you have to be insistent and consistent and agitating and all those things...

Chuck Shelton:

[inaudible 00:41:31].

Jennifer Brown:

... that those advanced competencies I think around I'm not going to let this go because it continues to be a problem and impact people and harm people. The squeaky wheel, from a change perspective, we need, this is what exhausts some of us who are in that D&I role in this seat because that is the agitator in chief, but you can't be the only one that's agitating because people get tired and they get fatigued of having you be in that role. They stop listening.

We need to switch up the messengers of the work. That's another reason we need to diversify the number of quarters that this messages coming from and the number of messages are coming from...

Chuck Shelton:

Yes, yes.

Jennifer Brown:

... and this is the need for allyship at the executive level, is to have, imagine how it would feel to be in a room and I don't need to be the one that always brings up the problem. I'm not the only one that noticed, and I'm not the only one that's suspending my capital...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... expending and...

Chuck Shelton:

Find the courage.

Jennifer Brown:

... exhausting my capital because...

Chuck Shelton:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

... if we all sort of put our capital in play for these issues, not a single one of us would feel like we're exhausting our capital, and therefore...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right. That's so good.

Jennifer Brown:

... being ignored, sidelined, fatigued, and ultimately it hurts us. We've seen the studies, Chuck. It hurts us to become known for our identity too much, right?

Chuck Shelton:

Right. I mean-

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:42:48].

Chuck Shelton:

I mean, right.

Jennifer Brown:

I'm the angry [inaudible 00:42:53] or whatever.

Chuck Shelton:

I mean, yeah, as it turns out, almost no one goes to work to be their identities.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, really?

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah. For those of us who are white men and cisgender and all the other descriptors of advantage, we've never, until recently, gone to work being any of those things because that was what was self-defined as merit and normative.

What's so fascinating now is that, compared to when I wrote my book in 2008 for a white man, and when we did the study in 2012, one of the changes in the last 15 years is that now everybody's at this place where, do I have a voice. Everybody has choices about whether we cultivate our own standing and do it in a way that we use whatever influence and power we have. I like that. You always use so many great words, Jennifer.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you.

Chuck Shelton:

You use the word squeaky, [inaudible 00:43:50].

Jennifer Brown:

So do you. You and I love words, Chuck.

Chuck Shelton:

I'm thinking squeaky, it's like, "Ooh, squeaky allies."

Jennifer Brown:

Squeaky wheel.

Chuck Shelton:

Squeaky. Your squeaking has a lot different impact if you have position power.

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, exactly.

Chuck Shelton:

I mean, I'm lit up on squeaking. I'm going to have to write about that because that was a good one. It's like a descriptive word. It's already in the Lexicon. It's got a little bit of good trouble to it. I mean, it-

Jennifer Brown:

It does.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah. Thank you for that.

Jennifer Brown:

I love that.

Chuck Shelton:

That is really practical.

Jennifer Brown:

Can I make one more point?

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

One more point that I know you'll resonate with is when people complain about risk, especially when you are part of the normative culture and that it's risky to step in, I don't buy it because when you squeak and you make noise, people listen. You actually do not need to be the big squeaker. You squeak once...

Chuck Shelton:

Right.

Jennifer Brown:

... like you sneeze and the organization gets the cold, right...

Chuck Shelton:

Right. Sure.

Jennifer Brown:

... but you have power. Don't complain to me about risk when we know that trans individuals and organizations are taking the biggest risk of anyone's life, not just [inaudible 00:44:59].

Chuck Shelton:

Literally, their lives...

Jennifer Brown:

Literally.

Chuck Shelton:

... are on the line.

Jennifer Brown:

I try to be gentle and kind when I make this point because I'm like, "I don't want to talk to you about risk. I don't believe it. I just don't believe it. You cannot complain about that. Get to work."

Chuck Shelton:

It's like you want to hold their head in your hands and then just smack them a little. It's just like...

Jennifer Brown:

I see you...

Chuck Shelton:

... I hear you.

Jennifer Brown:

... and no.

Chuck Shelton:

I care about you, but stop it.

Jennifer Brown:

Just stop it.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah. You and I have such a hard time finding things to talk about. I don't want to, [inaudible 00:45:32].

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, I know. It's always [inaudible 00:45:32].

Chuck Shelton:

Thank you so much for this conversation. I am so grateful, Jennifer, for the way that you have continued to find and use your voice, and also navigate the pain and the price, that you've used the word exhaustion, I think a couple of times.

Jennifer Brown:

A little personal, yes.

Chuck Shelton:

Yeah, keep being good to you because your voice...

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you.

Chuck Shelton:

... and your work is such a gift to all of us.

Jennifer Brown:

Chuck, well, right back at you. I mean, you were one of the very first...

Chuck Shelton:

Thank you.

Jennifer Brown:

... male allies that I ever knew, and were unafraid to put it out there in books and publicly, and I know you have endured a bunch of slings and arrows, and I appreciate you so much. I mean, you...

Chuck Shelton:

Thank you.

Jennifer Brown:

... are normalizing what I want to see every day, and that is invaluable to me because it allows me to keep going and have hope...

Chuck Shelton:

Good. Good. [inaudible 00:46:28].

Jennifer Brown:

... that it can happen and that it exists because I know that it exists because I know that you exist.

Chuck Shelton:

Exactly. I love them. Hope is a dangerous, risky thing, and it feels to me like we encourage one another to keep finding it and therefore, propagate it with other people. Even knowing to have it is risky. It's risky...

Jennifer Brown:

[inaudible 00:46:50].

Chuck Shelton:

... because hope's going to be bashed and with the permission to do such toxic things day in and day out right now, the hope that comes from positive relationships, and for me, that's one of the reasons why this conversation about scaling the work at this time is so important because that's one of the things that will maintain hope for us in the face of stuff that's just so toxic.

Like you mentioned, historians, I think historians will look back at the last decade in this one and say that I don't think it would be the dying throes of white supremacy because white supremacy, for example, is one system of oppression, has become pervasive and has persisted a very long time.

I also think there are corners that get turned in history, and I watched younger generations, the language they use, their sensibilities, the way they face up their own challenges around uses of technology that my generation has not had to face directly, and those are things that give me hope too...

Jennifer Brown:

Me too, me too.

Chuck Shelton:

... that people can lean in and fight the good fight and there's lots of good, maybe that comes back to the storytelling part, also, it's a discipline of us collecting and rehearsing the goodness because God knows we need that right now.

Jennifer Brown:

Boy, really, more than ever, and it is all around. It's just the headlines and the way that we are manipulated through clickbait and things like that, and headlines that don't tell the whole story. We all have to be really discerning about what we take in, what we share, what we, you are what you eat. The thoughts and the beliefs and letting it in.

We do need to let it in because we need to look at it and we need to address it because I think we've learned that painful lesson of ignoring and what happens when you do that, but not letting it kind of pervade our mentality, our hopefulness, like you say, and the reminder that there are, like right now, there are many, many, many companies continuing the work...

Chuck Shelton:

Totally. Absolutely.

Jennifer Brown:

... like not canceling, going forward saying, "I don't care what happens in this political sphere. This is important to us so that we can thrive in the future." In the younger generation, we want people talent to come in here and feel from day one that they are seen, that they are heard, that they're valued, that they are the future leaders of this organization.

Chuck Shelton:

That's right. Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

They are. We need to be building the workplace. Those of us at our generation need to be preparing the system to resonate...

Chuck Shelton:

That's so good.

Jennifer Brown:

... it with them.

Chuck Shelton:

That's so good.

Jennifer Brown:

That's what it has to be.

Chuck Shelton:

That's so good.

Jennifer Brown:

There's nothing else more important than that because we need to keep them and we want them to thrive, but they're going to thrive in a different way than we did. I would argue, Chuck...

Chuck Shelton:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

... you know this, we really didn't thrive in many ways. It was not a healthy system for us. I don't think we should be defending it. I think we should be really, really going down to brass tacks and saying, "What would the workplace look like if it could be built in a better way for the future?" We want that. We need that.

Chuck Shelton:

I love that forward focus because I think in the 2030s, the generations that are leading, the millennials and the leaders in their career and then the Zs coming up, and then having in their own view, the coming generation, I hope we'll find in the groundwork that we've laid sources for taking this where it needs to go, which will absolutely evolve, and we'll find their own voices and not be beholden to the limitations of our vision or the arrangements of history that just seems so damn powerful.

To me, that's part of the reason why I do think that this part of the story 10 years from now will be the competitive advantage that companies who've stayed at and organizations who stayed at this, now have. If they go quiet right now, because they want to keep their head down and not get in trouble, but they're also really focused on scaling it and getting business results both in talent and in customer, the customer connection and their ability to grow products and markets.

There are going to be stories to tell out loud or just be self-evident that these are folks who stayed with DEI and got it right as a business growing strategy. There'll be people in the 2030s that are going through whatever basic DEI training is what we call now, they'll go, I mean, there was a time where people didn't think this was about everybody, that there was a time when white guys felt like being white or male was a problem. I don't know, maybe it won't come that fast, but lots of things have happened faster than I ever expected in the last 10 years.

Jennifer Brown:

True, true.

Chuck Shelton:

Marriage equality, racial reckoning, the Me Too movement, there's lots. Let's not get too sanguine about how fast things can change, even while we're in the midst of some of this crazy back bench stuff that's just pure resistance.

Jennifer Brown:

Good point, really good point. I appreciate you reminding us of the pace of change, the cycles, shortening, things can turn on a dime, just as soon as we assume something is here to stay, it's not. I find that really helpful in reassuring to look at history, the art of moral, the moral universe, and...

Chuck Shelton:

That's right.

Jennifer Brown:

... and which ways it's going to be bent and bending and it will be winding because the American, and just to speak about America, that experiment of democracy is going to be a little bit of whiplash. We have [inaudible 00:52:35].

Chuck Shelton:

Looks like a time where we probably need to take that pretty seriously. Then, you add in stuff like pandemics and AI. My son, a few years ago, said that he thought the diversity issues of the 2030s and 2040s will be built around people who are willing to embed technology in their bodies and people who weren't.

Jennifer Brown:

Ooh.

Chuck Shelton:

I thought, "Well, that sounds just like us." I mean, that's what we do, the difference, and I'll be so on one side of that, but that's part of the evolution of the work and why it's a competence. Anyway, on we go. Thank you so much-

Jennifer Brown:

On we go.

Chuck Shelton:

... my friend, and it's such a joy and honor to be in the work with you.

Jennifer Brown:

Hi. This is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Doug Foresta:

You've been listening to The Will to Change, uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.