Reflections on Women’s History Month

Jennifer Brown | |

You can also listen on iTunes, Stitcher, and Google Play.

In honor of Women’s History Month, Jennifer shares her thoughts on several pertinent (and previously released) episodes from The Will To Change. You’ll discover the unique challenges that women face when sharing their voice in the workplace, the generational differences around gender equity and equality, what men can do to be allies and creative actions you can take to support and uplift women.

In this episode you’ll discover:

  •  What Millennial women expect when it comes to equity in the workplace (4:00)
  • The unique challenges that women face when sharing their voice (9:00)
  •  The socialization that keeps women from speaking up (13:25)
  •  Why LGBTQ women and women of color often do well as executives (20:25)
  •  The “3% Movement” and the dialogue about who is getting ahead at work (23:30)
  •  The crucial role that men can play as allies (25:30)
  •  Creative actions to support and uplift women (31:30)

Listen in now, or read on for the transcript of our conversation:

DOUG FORESTA: Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta and of course, with me is Jennifer Brown. Today’s episode, we’re doing another special minisode. This one is honor of Women’s History Month. International Women’s Day will be the initial release of this, but of course you could be listening to it any time. We’re going to be hearing Jennifer’s reflections on some previous episodes. Particularly, we have some amazing women who’ve been on this program.

First of all, Jennifer, thank you again for allowing me to join you on this. I’m just having a blast doing this.

JENNIFER BROWN: Me too Doug. Me too. Happy Women’s History Month.

DOUG FORESTA: Happy Women’s History Month. Our first guest we’re going to talk about is Rha Goddess. One of the things I’ll do is in the show notes we’ll put the numbers of the episodes and we’re going to be rereleasing these episodes as well so you can easily find them. But why don’t we actually get to it. I’ll play this first clip from Rha. Let’s take a listen to this.

You know I’m hearing 70% millennial in terms of the talent pool and the talent population. A lot of what we’ve attributed to millennials is that they are really serious about purpose. They’re really serious about change. They’re really serious about work/life integration. They’re really serious about authenticity and transparency. They’re walking in the door with these values. When your critical mass as a corporate structure is about that and you aren’t or let’s say traditionally have not been, it creates this perfect storm opportunity.

Interesting. I mean, one of the things I’m thinking about is obviously we think about women but also there are generational differences and of course we’ve talked about that and you’ve spoken about that on many different episodes and our guests have. Do you see a generational difference when it comes to what for example, as she was saying millennials or just even different generations of women expect in the workplace and beyond?

JENNIFER BROWN: Definitely. They have really found their voice times 100 compared to women of my generation which is Generation X. Doug you know we interviewed Claire Wasserman who runs Ladies Get Paid and she runs a conference that has grown exponentially. I think this year they’re going to hit 1,500 women mostly in the late ‘20s to mid ‘30s age group. They are getting so smart and using their voice and learning where they are facing micro inequities and unfair systems in the companies they work for and as entrepreneurs wanting to build companies that actually do reflect better the world that we want to thrive in.

I do think that women in the younger generation are using their voice in a different way. I do think companies, like Rha says are getting caught flatfooted as we say not having done their work, not having paid a lot of attention to this or if they have, they’ve kind of given lip service to the whole concept of diversity and inclusiveness when they have this new generation coming in that literally this is their daily diet.

It’s been something they’ve grown up on. It’s something they’ve valued in themselves, their own diversity stories and those of others. They can speak incredibly fluently about intersectionality as well. I think all of us really need to be paying attention to this younger generation and the language they use in their expectations of their work experience and where that fits into their authenticity as full people.

Like we always talk about Doug, what this generation I think wants from work is something a lot of us can secretly relate to and never achieved or were never given the opportunity to ask for/demand for a whole bunch of reasons. We’ve talked a lot on The Will to Change about generational expectations and character and all of that. I love this message because I do think companies that do well by women do well by other diverse groups as well. That women as a gender focus may be where companies start.

For some of our listeners that may be at smaller companies or companies who are in their infancy, know that starting somewhere is good. Starting with gender is very good. Then start with gender but always have an intersectional lens on how you start with gender as well. That means let’s not just let this focus become white women of a certain age. Let’s make sure we are intersectional in terms of our diversity of generations represented. Diversity of ethnicities represented. Diversity of sexual orientations and gender identity and expression represented. Women of different abilities, educational background, etc.

This generation of women is very comfortable with that. They don’t want to leave others out and they will be very vigilant about that which is welcome and something we all can learn in the older generations from them in particular.

DOUG FORESTA: Thank you Jennifer. That’s a great point, like you said, starting somewhere, anywhere is good.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right.

DOUG FORESTA: But then being aware of that intersectionality. For this next one, we’re going to go all the way back to episode seven. This is one that I really love. Our guest is Wokie. She talks about reclaiming women’s voices one story at a time. Let’s take a listen to this clip from Wokie.

How is it different from my brothers? I think that is the beginning of when I started to feel shy. I wouldn’t say that I am shy or that I was naturally shy. But when I believe I started to walk in the world with a little bit of insecurity around who I could be, how I could act and what kind of responses I would get because I was a girl. In the beginning I think we’re all born expressive. I think I have two young children and I see that there’s not a lot of fear around expressing opinions. But I think as we get older and we start to look at the world for affirmation or confirmation of things that we want to be or think we are or want to experience and we get mixed messages about what our expectations are based on who we are for me, I think, it caused me to pull back.

Boy, when I hear that it’s kind of heartbreaking to think about, but I’m sure it happens all the time which is the idea of women’s voices and marginalized voices get silenced. I’m really curious about your experience with this Jennifer in the work that you do and how do we create an environment where all voices are heard?

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, it’s something interestingly most people wouldn’t think I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. But I’m actually, I wouldn’t say the word shy, but I like to listen. I prefer to listen then speak. Wokie really touched a nerve with me because my work, believe it or not because I’m a keynoter, that’s me being an actress. That’s me putting on a very expressive personality and that’s something I’ve learned how to do.

I find it invigorating and it’s exhausting but in a good way. But my native style is really to hang back, to listen, to invite, to reflect, maybe not to speak so much. We live in a world meantime, in the business world where action and verbalization and strength is viewed and defined as people who talk a lot, who are very directive.

Yet, for many of us, if you happen to be a women already, so your voice may not be heard just walking in the room then you add you might be a women of color and you have to deal with the stereotypes around if you use your voice too much you’re being unfairly judged as being overly aggressive. That’s true for all women particularly women of color have some particular stereotypes that they’re dealing with. I call them headwinds of bias.

Then if you’re a quiet person you really have to get your energy up to get your voice in the room. Literally, you have to learn, you have to put on this energy and use power in a different way and in a really conscious way. It may be extra exhausting for you. It may feel you’re not being authentic. It might feel awkward and yet, we live in this world that rewards that behavior.

What I heard in her speaking is I guess we’re the role models for all kinds of women to use our voice including those of us for whom it is more of an effort perhaps to be louder and to demand attention and to pull that focus and to tap into the power that like it or not, respected. That current definition of power.

I think as allies to each other we need to be very aware of which voices are not being heard and the Wokies of the world. Perhaps even myself, when I’m in a meeting I may need to be drawn out to express my opinion, to give my input because I would much prefer to hang back reflect and maybe be asked my opinion after the meeting, frankly and not be put on the spot. When we think about diversity of style and thought and communication are, we canvassing as leaders the different styles in the room around us and taking into consideration how other diversity dimensions like gender, like ethnicity might compound that? Then given all that, how are we inviting people to give input in the way and at the time and with the frequency that they’re comfortable with?

If you’re mentoring someone you may want to push them to do more of this. To find that voice, to use it more it, to develop that muscle because you know that’s what’s seen and heard quote/unquote to use Wokie’s organization’s name in this business world and that’s really going to be necessary for you to be seen as having leadership potential, for example. It’s a lot that I just described. It’s really knowing your colleagues, knowing their personality. Pushing each other to go to the edge of comfort and developing some muscles to succeed in a world that values certain things until such time as we can change what that world values and make it more multihued.

We’re still very much operating in this unilateral linear definition of success which doesn’t create room for all of us and all of our styles of communicating and all of our beauty. I love Wokie’s work. I love that she’s giving meaning to women who might have thought they felt shy or been told they were or struggled to find their voice. That’s true for so many of us. By the way, true for men too.

DOUG FORESTA: I was just going to say, exactly maybe and I don’t know, men have become more used to this idea of like you said, performing as a gender expectation that we’re supposed to be a certain way. But absolutely, I would say that there are many men too who are not necessarily comfortable with just always being super extraverted.

JENNIFER BROWN: That’s right. That’s right. Having to get their voice in, they have more muscle I think, in terms of the banter, in terms of being heard and insisting on that. Women, we are horrible at insisting on being heard because of all the ways that we’re socialized in families and then in schooling. It’s depressing to see that even in the business school studies I read about Harvard Business School women ask much fewer questions, they interrupt the teacher less often. They don’t challenge each other, peer students. When they measure the amount of time that women speak in classroom situations it starts to really decline in older girls as they move into adulthood.

We really have to fight against this. It’s our very survival that’s on the line. But male colleagues need to make the way for us.

DOUG FORESTA: Right.

JENNIFER BROWN: We can only lean in such much, but the pull has to be there. The space has to be made for those who normally have the power who dominate the room and they’ve got to back up in order for us to have room to come in.

DOUG FORESTA: That’s where both allyship. Then also I don’t even know if it’s allyship, it’s just in yourself.

JENNIFER BROWN: Leadership.

DOUG FORESTA: Leadership really, right, exactly.

JENNIFER BROWN: Be a good human.

DOUG FORESTA: Yeah, be a good human exactly. We’ll move onto the next clip in a minute, but there was an SNL skit, I don’t know if you saw it, that reminded me of this where it was these men, they had women in the room and the men were explaining how women’s voices were being silenced. Every time the women would try and speak the men would speak over them to continue to explain.

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, that hurts. Oh good, when SNL is on it is really on.

DOUG FORESTA: Oh, I know, when they’re on they’re on. Our next guest is one that really stuck with me, Tina Alexis Allen. She has a really interesting story. Again, we’re going to rerelease these episodes, but she had this amazing story of finding out that her father was gay and then having this interesting relationship with him. But let’s here this clip here from Tina.

I do have a tendency, I think my personality probably molded from that kid who stood up to her dad when she was a young girl and said, “Leave her the hell alone.”  I might have been nine or 10 and getting between this rageful man and my passive mother. I think today being on set, seeing young actresses that may not have the voice fully formed yet, maybe not the ability to say no or think they might get a job if they just flirt a little bit or allow the flirting to take place or other things that happen in the workplace on a movie set, a TV set, or in corporate offices. I do agree that when you’re not thinking about that and that might just be because you’re married to a man or a woman and you’ve shut it down. But I think gay women, as you said, do have I want to say a bit of an upper edge, an upper hand if you will of the ability to focus at work. Assuming that they are not caught, because I think most of the time, they’re not caught in that heterosexual game that can often go on in the workplace. The flirting, the insinuations, the comments. Not that we don’t get comments if we’re gay, it’s just I think we have a clarity that we’re not going to play and that settles it down pretty fast. That’s just not part of the game. I think that drive, that clarity, that lack of distraction that happens for a lot of heterosexual woman at work fortunately, isn’t as intense I think, for gay women.

It’s interesting. That’s a really interesting point that she makes about this difference in experience for gay women in the workplace. Of course, as she says this, and I think about Me Too and all the issues that women have had in the workplace from men behaving badly. But I think she also maybe is going beyond that. Jennifer, I’m curious about your perspective on this.

JENNIFER BROWN: She said a lot.

DOUG FORESTA: She did.

JENNIFER BROWN: Her episode is so good. Tina Alexis Allen for anyone who hasn’t read her book Hiding Out she was the youngest of 12 in a Roman Catholic family. She held her father’s secret that he was gay man and her secret which was that she was gay. The two of them went clubbing.

DOUG FORESTA: It’s a wild story. If you haven’t listened to the episode you really need to go back and listen to it.

JENNIFER BROWN: It’s a wild story. It really is good. But what she’s talking about and what I was really curious to talk to her about is a thesis around being an LGBTQ person is outside of the heterosexual paradigm of course in so many ways and as women does that give us a certain level of freedom? It’s been my hypothesis and experience as well, personal experience. I wanted to know from here do you feel caught up in that? When you see it happening around you, do you feel you can have a uniquely helpful voice in the Me Too era? Especially on set, because she’s an actress. She has been in HBO shows. She’s constantly in that world where so much unfortunate behavior occurs and so many power dynamics are present where it’s ripe for abuse as we know.

She and I just talked about the advice that she could give and that she has given. Again, it reminds me of how we can be allies to each other. That we can be strong for each other. It struck me, it was kind of the first time I had thought about how can gay women be allies to straight women? We don’t talk about that, that much but it’s got to be true. It has to be that we can lift each other up. We can call each other out in a loving way. We can say, “This is not helping you and I’m concerned about you.”

We can come from a place where this dynamic may not be impacting me, but I see that it’s impacting you. Maybe it did impact me by the way, not to say that just because you identify as a gay or a queer woman that you haven’t been harassed. That’s statistically just as true, but the reaction to it and the ability to come from this place of not paying as she says, it’s not a game that I want to be involved in, that’s a very empowered platform from which to come in terms of your decisions, in terms of being able to speak truth to power and not really be subject to the vicissitudes on the personal side of all the largely men in powerful positions. It just feels like a different vibe.

Yeah, it was a really cool conversation. I asked her about how have you steered younger actress towards what’s most important, reminded them how to use their voice, made sure you’re sort of protecting in a way? I know that she’s done that, and she talks about it a lot in the episode. It’s funny to hear her talk about how she stood between an angry abusive father and her mother as a child and knew something was different about herself. Used her voice and her body, her physical body. The strength of her as a young girl telling this story in Hiding Out, oh my goodness.

But knowing she was different I think, gave her this steeliness and I feel that in myself and I see it amongst LGBTQ women. I have a totally unscientific theory that gay women do particularly well amongst women and frankly, so do women of color I think, do really well in the executive suite. There’s something around giving no shits.

DOUG FORESTA: Right. Just to get to where you are you had to develop that steeliness.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right. That’s right and it does you really well. I think there’s something to be said about the lessons that can be taught woman-to-woman intergenerationally, intergender, intersexual orientation. I love the thought of that, and I’d encourage our audience to think about is that a way that you can stand up for others? Maybe it’s a level of support you need. If you’re a heterosexual woman listening to this, maybe buddy up to your gay woman friend and really talk through some of these dynamics and think about how can you maybe borrow some of that distancing, that healthy boundary.

Being mentored is all about I think, imaging how you could behave differently, taking some language that somebody else might use in your situation, trying it on, practicing it, developing a new muscle and really knowing that this person is behind you and next to you as you grow that new capability. I just imagine Tina as this very powerful force for good in that respect.

DOUG FORESTA: Beautiful. Yeah, that’s great. The last clip that we’re going to hear is from Kat Gordon. Kat was also one of the earlier episodes that we did. Well, not that early, it was episode 27 earlier about the ad industry and the age of inclusion. Let’s hear from Kat.

Even has I’ve grown the 3% movement I notice that especially the men that have gravitated towards our movement, especially the earliest advocates are exactly as you just described. There’s something in their upbringing, they either grew up in another culture, they might be gay, the might have had a lisp. There was something that made them aware of what it feels like to be otherized. How real it is, how debilitating it can be, how much it can alienate you from the predominate culture.

Do you want to say a little bit on what the 3% movement is?

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah. Kat Gordon Runes the 3% Conference. It referred to a number of female creative directors at ad agencies at a certain point in time. I’m not sure which year but it was maybe seven or eight years ago when she first started the movement. 3% of creative directors in major agencies were women. Most were white women. She has not changed the name of her movement because it’s so powerful, such an important reminder that it’s minuscule. The number has improved but has it improved across the board for all kinds of women? No.

Her conference is such a great place to have dialog around intersectionality amongst women. Who is getting ahead and who is not? She also has something called the “Manbassador” track which I’m going to feature in my second book Doug. I’m actually reprinting something called a “Manbassador” bingo card. It started out actually as a pejorative card, people would sit in the audience and tick off the number of things they heard largely male panels say. But it morphed into something positive which now it’s a bingo card around all the positive things that male allies can be doing, “Manbassadors” if you will.

It’s a hoot. It’s 60 examples of very tangible things that men can do to show their allyship for women. Particularly in the ad world but I think it’s actually globally useful. Industry-to-industry it’s an 80/20 role. 80% of the things that afflict us are the same and shared across industries. Then I’d say maybe that other 20% is industry specific.

She has a “Manbassador” track and I have never seen as many men at a women’s conference as I’ve seen at Kat’s conferences. That is a huge commitment. It is needed because separate space is important for men to gather, to see each other gathering, to hear from men on the stage talking about their journeys and to see their own role models if you will. It’s just a critical way that human behavior changes is by seeing other people go first and you thinking to yourself, “Well, I could do that. It’s not that hard,” or “He did that, and he has this big job and this big title. I could do more.”

She’s really made this intentional track which I love. She continues along that road and there are other things like The Better Man Conference Doug which you know we’ve done some minisodes about. I encourage our listeners to go back and listen to my reflections on what it’s like to be in a room with 300 men who are all there for a full day to learn about inclusiveness and what they can do.

DOUG FORESTA: That’s great.

JENNIFER BROWN: It’s just mindboggling how novel it feels to be in that room and shocked and awesome and inspiring for me. It’s kept me going through the difficulties of selling this whole idea into a male dominate business world. It gives me that extra spring in my step to think about the men that are making time to show up for these things, to learn, to be part of the solution. It’s hard to walk into a space where you’re in the minority.

It’s funny when you flip it around and all of us know very well what it’s like to walk into those spaces. Kat was a CES I think, in Vegas. A lot of female leaders were there kind of challenging the agenda and who was put on panels, agitating in general to say, “Who’s planning this conference? Who are you putting on stage? What message is that sending to younger talent that’s in this industry that they don’t see themselves reflected?”

There’s a woman I recently discovered on Twitter that has the hashtag “NoMoreManels.” She’s on a mission to tweet about “manels” which means male dominate panels.

DOUG FORESTA: Male panels. Yeah, I learned that one from producing the show, the manel.

JENNIFER BROWN: Manel is a thing. She travels through, not literally travel but metaphorically through the Twitterverse and people send her alerts that there’s a manel alert in Stockholm or whatever at this biotech conference. People send her all this stuff and she messages the organizers and she says, “Is this the best you can do?”  Of course, she does it graciously but firmly and then draws attention to it, and I think educates a lot of people in the process who honestly it hadn’t even crossed their mind.

I know you and I Doug know, it’s like how could it not have crossed their minds? But here are many, I’d say most people, are not having the conversations we’re having. It’s so important to remember that. Shaming on Twitter is a tactic. It needs to be used in a limited way. But most, most important is you educate. Calling out, we like to say calling in.

DOUG FORESTA: Yeah calling in versus calling out.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah, inviting someone to give some attention to something and talk about why. It’s about an inviting opportunity and then really marshalling that conversation for suggestions which I love to see actually. #ManelWatch or #NoMoreManels all those hashtags end up in this really cool thread where a lot of women experts are being suggested. When people say, “I couldn’t find any women biotech experts, scientists,” whatever they say and then the community just swarms in there.

DOUG FORESTA: Right. Here’s 50 of them. Exactly.

JENNIFER BROWN: I think it’s a real lesson in the limitations of our networks. When we go to organize something, we’re going to recruit from the people we know, and we all suffer from that. I do too. The question becomes are you aware there’s a problem? Are you committed to not repeating the problem, not perpetuating the problem of homogeneity on the stage? Then how are you thinking outside the box and who are you asking for suggestions?

I think this is why social media is at its best when it can crowdsource names and experts and role models from so many different fields that are not on people’s radar screens for exactly the reason, we’ve been talking about during this entire episode which is that we aren’t on the radar screens. We’re either like Wokie talked about, maybe we’re not tooting our own horn and maybe that’s not our personality. It’s more difficult for some of us to do that than others. Maybe we’re LGBTQ and we have wrestled with how to find our voice in that community and we’ve been in a very real way intimidated from showing up fully and getting on those stages because we’ve wrestled with the stereotype threat that we anticipate is going to happen to us and the damage to our careers.

There’re so many reasons that these inspirational women are not on people’s radar screens. I applaud all the conference organizers like Kat, like Leanne Pittsford who was a guest and runs Lesbians Who Tech, who has literally 50/50 white women and women of color in her audience and on her stage and in her staff. That has been her commitment from the beginning, and she achieves it. Anyone that says this is not possible is not really looking in the right places, asking the right people and is not courageously challenging their own paradigms.

DOUG FORESTA: Well, we’re bumping up on time and I don’t want to put you on the spot Jennifer, but I am going to put you on the spot. I want to ask you, nothing terrible actually a good thing I hope, which is obviously we’re celebrating Women’s History Month this month, do you have any words of inspiration or a challenge you’d like to leave our audience with men, women, non-binary, whoever we may be to celebrate women?

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah. I’ve already been seeing some of my friends do really creative things that feel great and important. Like, my friend Cecilia Nelson who works at L’Oréal. I love her. She’s on Instagram and I wish I knew her handle. We’ll put that in the show notes. But Cecilia is honoring one woman a day for each day in March. She’s honoring her and I was the third to be honored. It was so wonderful for her to do that.

She posted a picture of me. She shared things that I’ve done, that I’ve contributed, my books and she thanked me for my voice. She made sure her list of 31 through March, 31 days is diverse in every way. They are all leaders that inspire her. I just thought it was a beautiful gesture. These kinds of ways of marking this month. She has a giant platform in social so hundreds of likes on every single share she makes. That’s big to me. I know it’s not big in the Kardashian world, but it’s big for me.

DOUG FORESTA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: She’s doing her part. I’m seeing a lot of other women like Jennifer (Whitter? 0:31:28) on Twitter who I go back and forth with all the time, she’s honoring all her favorite podcasts by women that are about women and gender issues. She just lists them all out. For me, I know I’m picking up all these ideas about who could I be following and who should I be supporting and what thought leaders are out there that I need to know about?

I hope all of our audience, including the men that listen to The Will to Change are paying attention. When men do this kind of thing it has exponential impact. That’s one thing we always talk about Doug, is the messenger and not just the message. If the messengers could be men about Women’s History Month more proactively, I’d like to see that. I’d like to see like Wade Davis talks about. I’d like to see what books men are reading by women. I’d like them to share them and talk about their learnings and how the book shifted something for them.

If we don’t look at women as teachers, and as executives, and as leadership experts, particularly if men don’t look at them that way, we can have all the fun and kudos that we want amongst us as women and we will continue to do that, but it really needs to cross over to that. To me, that will be the evidence that women are being taken seriously in the society as leaders.

That’s a call out to men who are listening to this, how are you recognizing women? Who are you recognizing? How are you using your platform to magnify the voices making sure those voices are representative of all kinds of women? How are you positioning women as your teachers? I think if we can flip that dynamic, we’re really going to see a C change in terms of our difficulties in the workplace and feeling seen and heard, feeling taken seriously, being seen as having quote/unquote executive presence or not and all of these tropes that we really struggle so much again. We need the participation of men.

DOUG FORESTA: Well, I will say personally that I have learned and continue to learn much from you Jennifer.

JENNIFER BROWN: You’re the best Doug, so open and interested and supportive. Just listen to Doug and his energy and the way we produce these podcasts and the way that Doug acknowledges his own learning and is genuinely enthusiastic. I know you’re a dad of a daughter.

DOUG FORESTA: I encourage men, care about women because they’re human beings and they’re fellow human beings, don’t care about them because of your daughter.

JENNIFER BROWN: You’re related to one.

DOUG FORESTA: I really feel strongly about that.

JENNIFER BROWN: I do too. I do too. I’m grateful when people say it, but I also cringe. It shouldn’t just be because you’re related because we’re all related to a woman in some way.

DOUG FORESTA: We’re all related to women.

JENNIFER BROWN: How much further can you go past that in terms of your rationale. Be specific. Invest some time. Talk about who has shifted your own understanding of your own journey and your own leadership. I’ve been reading books by men my whole life. I have my favorites, but I make sure that I even as a woman, am trying to challenge my own biases about what a leader looks like and who I’m quoting and who had an impact on me. Even I, as a woman, felt I was learned at the knee of all of these best-selling male authors.

It’s interesting how that bias permeates even us. We’ve got to change our own language too and our references, our storytelling. But I also like to story tell about men who get it also because that’s important too, to at the same time re-enforce and elevate men as role models that really deserve that. I think we need to do that too, because men in addition to listening to us, they will listen to other men in a different way, qualitatively different. That’s critical as well. As a community of women, who do we think the men are that get it and how are we storytelling about them?

DOUG FORESTA: Well, I encourage our listeners to again, we’re going to be re-releasing these episodes that we discussed. If you haven’t had a chance to listen to them or if you want to refresh your memory about these stories you can go ahead and do that. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me as always. Happy Women’s History Month.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you Doug.

DOUG FORESTA: Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening.