Owning Our Place in the Privilege Equation: Dax-Devlon Ross, Principal, Dax-Dev, joins Jennifer and Ray Arata, Better Man Conference Founder

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DAX DEVLON ROSS: I often felt like I had to earn my way into th- those spaces because I was in many ways, the unusual person. I was the person who I think sometimes my colleagues would be like, "Yo, what are you doing here? Is this, are you in the right room? Like, because-"

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... it would be, it was an unusual n-, it wasn't necessarily the usual thing.

What I will notice and say, though, is that a lot of, particularly at the times, younger Black men could see me and be like, "Yo, I can see myself in you and thank you for being here in this space because now I feel like I have, I, I can be in this conversation too."

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Which, which reminds me that there is this need for all of us to be in it and that, and that space, you talk about this work privilege, there was, uh, a way in which I could be a, a symbol of a kind of, um, healthy use of the privileges that were associated with my identity, right? Those identities as, like, as a man, as a Black man who has education.

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DOUG FORESTA: The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author, and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, onto the episode.

Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. This episode that you're about to hear was recorded as a LinkedIn Live on Indigenous People's Day as Jennifer mentions at the start of the interview and features a conversation between Jennifer as well as Dax Dylan Ross, principal at Dax-Devlon Ross, and Ray Arata, founder of the Better Man Conference as they talk about privilege and a different way of looking at privilege belong, uh, the good or bad. So definitely a rich conversation.

I also wanna make sure that you know that there is still time to register for the Better Man conference which is on November 2nd in 2022. Simply go to bettermanconference.com, that's bettermanconference.com, and you'll see the link to register.

And now onto the conversation.

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JENNIFER BROWN: Well, hey, both of you and hey to our virtual audience and I just wanna acknowledge Indigenous People's Day today. We at JVC have been, um, we've produced a wonderful thought paper on resources about this day and how the meaning of it is being debated and challenged and I wanna acknowledge, I'm, I'm dialing in from the Catskill region in New York State, which is Mohegan and Iroquois land. And, um today I have on my mind and heart how history is often interpreted as a progress tale, a progress tale that upholds and celebrates conquest and oppression as seeming accomplishments but overlooks the real, long term, and violent impact of colonization on indigenous people. So, uh, just wanted to say that that it's a profound day and it's an important day and it matters, it matters how we tell our history and who tells it and what we leave out and what has been left out.

So, speaking of centering, uh, I think that that's a, that's an exercise we can do, uh, to make sure that perhaps what is not in the conversation or at the table or in the room gets brought into the room. Um, and so thanks for the opportunity and, and given that, let's, like, segue, because I think that's a fascinating way, Dax, to, you know, invite our first kind of question or two, you know, which is-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you, you know, as you to talk about what's, l-, uh, your story and perhaps if you'd like to dive into the question of centering, the question of-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, how do you decide what to center. You're a teacher, you're a writer.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: What, how do you decide about what to center, how to center yourself, what needs to be centered, and what your voice is in doing that or, or-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... enabling that because those are two very different things, enabling something, doing something, leading something, supporting something, like, there's a lot of positions we can take, vis a vie-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... what needs to be heard, so ...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I mean, um, so first of all, thank you both. Um, thank you all both for just putting together what's gonna be an amazing conference-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... um, bi-costal, it's gonna be incredible, like, just trying to put it all together and I'm excited to be a part of it, be on stage in San Francisco, so, to the folks out there who maybe don't know me, my name is Dax-Devlon Ross, I'm an author, journalist at times, um, do a lot of work in the equity and impact space working with a number of organizations and companies to truly try to help them strategic, tactical place in a variety of ways. Um, and I, you know, Ray and I connected initially through a book that I wrote about a year ago called Letters to My White Male Friends and I'm sure I'll touch on that a little bit from here and there.

It's so strange to see books that you've written and you're kind of, you know, out in the world and it's like this thing that kinda keeps popping up into your life at different points, like, "Whoa, it's still there."

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Um, and it, and it's amazing and I also just wanna acknowledge, Jennifer, just first of all, big ups to your for publishing your book, the second edition that came out last week, right? That was October 4th, I know that's a huge deal, so I just wanna lift you up.

This question of centering, I think when you asked the question, where my brain goes to is that I was initially trained as a facilitator.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Um, and what that meant is I was facilitating spaces often with college students and people, um, who were trying to, um, wrestle with, grapple with, come to terms with aspects of identity. And one of the things that I learned as a facilitator very early on, because I had also been a teacher-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... a classroom teacher specifically, was that, you know, there's this idea of the sage on the stage and it's like the goal is not to be the sage on the stage. When you, and that was like a p-, an orien-, sort of an orienting force in my life around what it means to facilitate.

And when you're a facilitator, you're, in many ways you're an energy, you're, you're moving energy through the room. You're a conduit through which people can begin to hear other conversations that need to be heard and also to sort of, like, reflect back and name things through the group, so that they can continue to set its course from where it wants to go.

So this idea of being in the center of a space as a facilitator but not being the center of attention is something that I've always worked with meaning I, in a physical s-, in a physical space, in an actual room, what that looks like is I often facilitate very low, you know, I get down, I'm not, like, walking off and I'm not lording over the group. I'm trying to make sure that I'm as, I'm 6'1", 200 pounds, I'm trying to also thought, think about, like, what do I, what ih-, what is, what is, how, what kind of space am I occupying? I often operate on the peripherial of space, like, I walk outside of the circle. I think circles are important when you're trying to create these kind of communities.

And all of that, and, and then balancing, um, the amount of talk time that I have relative to the time, talk time that the group has. And, and being cognizant over the years, I think, has allowed me, as a writer, as a, as a, as a, um, as a consu-, consultant, strategist, thinker, to practice that in some ways that have become, I wouldn't say fully and ent-, entirely intuitive but it become and feel much more natural to me.

I often have to be with, you do, you, eh-, Ray, you talk about a moment ago, I often have to catch myself and say, "Dax, they actually wanna hear from you right now." Like, they both actually wanna hear what you have to say on this and it's challenging because I don't wanna take up space and so the last thing I will say connected to the book as we get started is that one, one of the things you'll notice, and Jennifer, you noticed and Ray, you notice is that the book I wrote and my wr-, my writing at this point in my life, I try to make it very lean and very spare and it's very intentional. I actually think that it is important for me to be mindful as a writer, as a thinker in the world, that people have limited bandwidth, limited time, so I need to say the most essential thing I can say to them and then get out of the way.

And so there's this idea of constantly playing with that and words and playing with it as a facilitator, playing with it as a practitioner, and n-, and I guess I will tack on this one last thing is a lot, a lot of my work over the last, in the last few years has been going what you call either focus groups in-, or, or listening sessions. What that, what that means is I'm listening to people tell their stories inside organizations with the purpose of trying to make sure that the organization, its leadership, its body, its, um, um, can hear back what folks are saying, so in, invariably what that means is you have to be able to be in a room and listen to folks and hear what they're saying and not interpret it only through what you want to be said, but what they're actually saying. And so as a r-, so when I'm doing that listening and doing the writing, I find that I'm constantly in the space of, "But what is the group saying? But what are they actually saying and how am I making sure that those voices are being heard?"

So there's a lot of practices that I've engaged into my life as practitioner in my work that ensure that there's a decentering of self, even though I know ego's a part of my work, I know I have my own needs for s-, to be seen, to be heard, so there's a, it's a constant balance and dance. But I, I'll, I wanna bring it back to, you know, to the rest of the group, you know, to see where you all go with it because that's my take on it initially as I began and now Ray, Ray, you're chomping at the bit.

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm. I'm just listening. You, I, the imp-, the unsaid in between what you said, there's two very important pieces here. One, and this is one of the things I teach men is how to listen from the heart and to get curious which is you're really gonna require guys that identify like me to listen to the conversations, plural. Listen to what's going on with me and then f-, uh, a takeaway for anybody regardless of how you identify is, and I was taught this in, in the men's work leadership, uh, over the years, to pose the question myself. Does something need to be said?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: (laughs)

RAY ARATA: And need to be said by me?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm.

RAY ARATA: (laughs) And towards what end am I saying this and then how can I get the hell out of the way?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: Right? If you, you all can write those down and, and it, it works like a charm. Does something need to be said? Does it need to be said by me?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: Towards what end and how can I get out of the way? That, if you also listen, will make you a great incru-, inclusionary leader and you'll be able to use that privilege, those privileges that you have, to create that environment.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I'm gonna bring it back to you, Jennifer. I wanna hear from you, like, how do you practice this in your work?

JENNIFER BROWN: I was trained as a facilitator too, and Dax, we have, every time you and I talk it's just, like-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... mm. Um, I loved, until I found my voice, I think, I learned to be a facilitator because in way, I could kind of hide.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, but it enabled me an- and I think about that vis a vie the identities I carry too, right? Hiding as LGBT, you know, hiding, maybe in the way that I was socialized as a female.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, you know, sort of coping with imposter syndrome for sure from when you are the front of the room person. And-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... but you're making, so facilitating felt super comfortable for me because I love to listen, I love to learn from other people, and I needed to learn from other people, and I still do, but particularly earlier in my career, um, but I, I think it's interesting to view that through the lens of identity and sort of-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... do I, am I allowed to be in this space? Like, when am I allowed to step forward and have it be about what I think-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and what I have to teach-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, so anyway, it just really resonates with me that the noticing of our progression and our path that we followed of our voice and, you know, some of us, it think, will tend to hang in the back and some of us will tend to over rotate, um, and not through bad intent, perhaps more comfort in a given space. And-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... I think that's a l-, kind of privilege. One of the questions I really wanted us to explore was I talk about privilege beyond gender, y-, color of skin-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... sexual orientation, right? Um, I, I try to talk about, I try to really challenge myself to think outside the box about different kinds of privilege, um, and I know when I'm standing on front of the stage, I have a kind of privilege. I have expert privilege, you know? I have, I have, or, or I have the author privilege, you know, that people-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... wanna know-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... what I have to say and how I analyze things. Um, but I'm also really so cognizant of what I learned in grad school was that adult learning theory teaches us that 90% of the wisdom in any room lives in our audience.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: And I just took that to heart and it gave me permission, actually, to, to grow into who i am today and to stand there but in service of the dialogue, um ...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Somehow kind of being the, the prompter.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: The, you know, the, the supporter or the connector, but perhaps not the originator. Um ...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: You know? So, I do think originating, the people who originated our workforce today, our workplace, look like you, Ray, right? Um, our workplace wasn't originated by people that look like you and me, Dax-Devlon.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: No.

JENNIFER BROWN: So, like, we've got, so I, I think that our place in these systems and sort of being super conscious of, you know, what's needed, who needs to hear, d- d-, is, is, uh, am I as a messenger in this body needed right now or am I redundant or are there t-, you know, too many (laughs) of me?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, you know, and, but then I appreciate sometimes being in a community with you two, centering me is, is absolutely the right answer and-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, and then I have to be ready to be centered, you know?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: I have to be prepared for that and that's something I've been preparing for for many, many years coming from the back. The safety of the back to the front and being witnessed by those that mentor me or are pulling me forward and pulling me into the spotlight, whether I'm ready or not and putting me there has developed that muscle. But it's just a really inter- ... And Dax, I wonder if you-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... I wonder-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... if you ever held back in the way that I'm describing and how-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... you know, how you learned to step forward and where and- and, you know, what was that process like for you?

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah, um, that, um, that process is a constant dance that I experience even now. You know, I find that-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... I can be in a space of ... I can get stuck as a writer even after having been ... And people want to hear from me. I kinda get stuck when I asked that very question at [inaudible 00:14:48], um, it- which is, "Do I need to be heard from right now?" I- I tend to-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... observe the broader society we're in- living in, and I do have a tendency to believe that there are folks who are, you know, they have talking heads. We have folks who are professional pontificators, who've- who- who feel it's important for them to weigh on everything at all times. And I- and I- I cringe at that. I cringe at that- that, because I think it dilutes the real power of what you can actually communicate in a given moment and a given time.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And at the same time, I also recognize that I've sometimes done that muting. And it's funny because you talk about your particular identities. And so I entered facilitation working particular and sort of working the quote-unquote what might be cons- defined as the DEI space, which I think at the time I entered it, it might not even been called that. It wasn't even that term-

JENNIFER BROWN: Wow. (laughs)

DAX DEVLON ROSS: But when I entered that world, it was very much the case that I was, uh ... because I'm a cis- I'm a cis man and I'm also presenting a very ... from a mascul- ... I can present it pretty masculine ways. I'm a- I'm a jock in a lotta ways. I played ball growing up, like ... I often felt like I had to earn my way into tho- those spaces because I was-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... in many ways the unusual person. I was the person, who I think sometimes my colleagues look to me like, "What are you doing here? Is this ... Are you in the right room?" Like because it would be-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... it was an unusual n- ... It wasn't necessarily the usual thing. What I will notice and say, though, is there are a lotta, particularly at the times, younger Black men could see me and feel like, "Yo, I could see myself in you." And, "Thank you for being here in this space because now I feel like I have ... I- I can be in this conversation too."

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Which- which reminds me that, you know, there- there- there is this need for all of us to be in it, in- in that space. 'Cause you talk about this word privileged. There was, uh, a way in which I could be a- a symbol of a kind, um, healthy use of the privileges that were associated with my identity, right, those identities as, like, as a man, as a Black man who has education, as a Black man who shows up in the world as heterosexual, as a Black man all the- who has all- who has social clim- ... Like all those things and then being allowed nevertheless. And- and- and so they're not allowed. And then still be a- a symbol for others to see that they can be in conversations around power and identity and race and gender and religion, whatever else have you, and have a place in it.

Because I'm gonna be honest, those faces don't often feel like they're open to- to, like, to- to men, to dudes, like to guys who might present in a way that it s- it's like that's not their work. Whereas in their hearts, it's their work and that's the thing they show up for in the world. But it may not ... They might not present in those ways or they're- when they open their mouths-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... it may not come out in the ways ... They might not use the terminology. Because and I think sometimes in these conversations, terminology can be such a powerful code signal, a code for how much you've read, what article- authors you can quote, you know, how l- ... And it's like we just end up taking all sorts of brilliant people who just have a different pathway into this work out of the conversation.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: So I'm- I'm ... I try to stand up for those folks in many ways and try to be present for those folks. And I think that's where I've taken my cue to center myself because I'm like, "That- that one in the back, he- he might need me," or- or, "She might need me because I might represent somebody in her family too," you know?

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: So it's the recognition like I can't know your story, I can't know what you might need and who you might be looking to for guidance, but recognizing that I've been called and asked to be in this space and I keep being invited to this space, I'm gonna honor that invitation. And in so doing, I'm gonna be the best of myself. And- and also take hard feed- take the feedback when it comes to me, 'cause there's been times when I have messed up, or times where I've said things that are inappropriate or done things or such. But even modeling that has been healthy, like modeling how can I receive feedback in the moment and not get bro- and not- and not lose my stuff, you know, stay- stay composed and stay in it and stay compassionate, empathetic, and all those things I think work in our favor, you know?

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. Um-

JENNIFER BROWN: Ah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: We've all been there, where we've- we have unintentionally misstepped and taken something for granted or had an assumption or-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... have privileged something, right, and, um, this is how we learn though. Um, and- and I think that for the Better Man audience, that's such a critical ... Like how do I- how do I not let my ego get involved and take over or feel bruised and wounded or make it about me-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: You know, how do I stay centered ... Speaking of centering, dif- different definition of that word. For me it feels like staying grounded in-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... I am here, what I'm here to do-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... what do I need to learn, and having that humility, like over and over again to say there's so ... As much as I might be positioned as a teacher, there's so much I don't know and- and there's so much I've been told that I needed to learn. And, like, Dax, you just said making it visible, that's one of my biggest advice points to particularly male leaders, to say like, "Show how you're growing. Like tell us about ... Tell us about your development. Tell us about what was hard. Tell us about, um ..." I don't know, it- because I- the privilege that you have creates more safety, I think, in doing that Now you could disagree-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and some leaders'll say, "Jennifer," like, "I feel like I'm gonna get canceled every single moment." Like, "How can you possibly encourage me to speak about what's easier for me or where I benefit from privilege?" Um-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: And it's tricky-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... because I also want both of your thoughts on this. I think leaders that don't know how to story tell around diversity because they don't feel they've experienced certain things or enough-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... or the right kinds of whatever, identity, um, they don't feel like they have something to say ... They have a lot to say, but they don't know how to get into it. And I think privilege is this- this interesting thing, if we could make it- we could define it in such a way that doesn't- it's not a bad reflection on who we are, our character, whatever.

 Like putting that aside. But how could we talk about what our privilege has enable, uh, us to do or be in this lifetime and, um, and what are we doing with it in how we've wrestled with it and what are the feelings that it has brought up and, um, you know, what- what do we know something about? You know, I talk about what's easier for me, what I have more access to- to, what I have more permission to say or do. As an LGBTQ person, it's really powerful to hear- role model what it sounds like to be able to hold multiple pieces of this identity and speak about them, and I wonder-

RAY ARATA: I- I have something to say here and then I wanna ask Dax a question. You know-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: ... and so to me, context is everything. And so the context that I wanna invite everybody to consider adopting with respect to privileges, is humanizing privilege as opposed to demonizing privilege.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: To- to resist the inner thought that says, "Something must be wrong with me because I have privilege." How contraire. If you wanna change the word advantage in for privilege ... If you understand the distinction between earned and unearned privilege, that is one of the stepping stones. I didn't say before I was born, "Yeah, check the white box, the male box, the heterosexual box-"

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: " ... Oh, and the 6'4" box," 'cause that's tall guy privilege. You'll see that when I stand on the stage next to Dax 'cause I'm gonna have two inches on you.

JENNIFER BROWN: Whoa.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I- I'm gonna stand far apart. We'll stand ... [inaudible 00:22:24]

RAY ARATA: So- so that's the first piece around privilege, but- but to the- to your point, Jennifer, around lead- leaders pushing back on ya a little bit because they're afraid to get canceled ... I talk ... In my mentor work, I talk ... and then my ally, inclusion, and leadership work, with respect to men is- is to step into that fear and remember you're a human. You're gonna make a mistake. But if you have a way to get back on the horse and take responsibility for your misstep, there's no reason why you can't lean into using your privilege. And the one last thing, and this is unique for the white guy on this call, is for me to understand that I have white male ability or I have white male fragility. And which one do I choose to act from? If the worst thing that's gonna happen to me-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm.

RAY ARATA: ... because I make a mistake is people will not think great things about me, ego, and/or I get kicked out of the good ol' boys club, but my life's not threatened, my job's not threatened. Therein- therein again is my unique white male ability that has me take some of those hits that people that identify like you, Dax, and people like you, Jen-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: ... who've had to cover or chose not to cover, took the hits. So for me, it's an invitation for- for men, particularly white men, to- to take a breath and lead.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

RAY ARATA: You're not gonna die.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: (laughs) No, no. I think there's also like this assumption that, like, that every- that it's like knives are out and people are just waiting, you know, for you to say ...

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And- and actually, that's an- that's an unfortunate, I think, perspective that it- there is- there are some extreme, um, views and people who have- who I- I would argue that in some ways have their own work they need to do as well. Like I think there's folks that we h- are folks who have some work to do. But I think that that assumption that folks won't have any kinda grace and won't have any, like, uh ... It- it's just a mat- ... And I- I know for myself and what I've observed in my own work, the ability to- to sort of reframe for people-

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... you know, the- the ability, you know, to- to sort of allow one's self to be caught a little bit so that people can, like, do some nurturing and support of you in that space.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Um, I think there's the challenge though of- of- of ... which just comes back to I'm imagining and I can't assume all- to it- to be the case for all, but some of the white men that I've encountered and worked with is there is such value placed on, um, one's ability to be perceived as or to- to actually execute as, um, a leader in the- in sort of- in that class, like in a traditional sense, that the threat of presenting otherwise is so ... It- it presents such a risk that I can imagine and I do perceive it to be just really, really debilitating, like debilitating.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Because it's not just like a, "I don't wanna do it." Like it is a debilitating ex- experience, where I- I've watched folks in these Zooms just di- disappear.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I've watched people just sort of like go off ca- ... I just ... I've watched the silence. I've watched the tension, the body language. And it's ... And wha- what we're trying ... What I think a lot of folks who are doing this work, who I think are trying to do it for the reasons that I try to do it, which are, like, I'm trying to actually create a- a world we can all be successful and we can all thrive. Like it's not just so that Dax can thrive and people who look like Dax could thrive. It's so all of us could thrive. Is that I- is that we're- we want to also bring levity into this work too.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Like if we can't ever laugh, if we can't ever have any kinda joke, if we can't ever like say the wrong thing but like, "Oh ..." and just like bug out about it for a moment, then that's just- w- what kinda place is- of ... what- what kinda place are we in if everything has to be- feel like it's that high stakes, every word, every ... Then, you know, that's not the environment that I think I know my folks are struggling for. We're- we're looking for a place that is joyful. We're looking for a workplace that is, you know, like fully expressive in all the ways that people want to bring into the space.

So I- I just would invite people who feel that level of angst and that tension ... A, I think Ray is right and really makes a good and valid point, which is to say, if we wanna talk about cancellation, there's some people I can talk about who've actually really experienced it, you know, some of my own heroes, like really- like really, like couldn't eat, couldn't get work, like were actually, you know, living in exile, like exile, for real.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And we wanna talk about it, so let's use the word appropriately and let's use precise in our definitional use. But that's also not what's likely gonna happen because there is an infrastructural support and that infrastructural support will ensure that you don't fall so far from the field and fall s- so far straight. And let's me real and let's be honest about that because we see the recovery arwy- always happen very quickly in our society. And that's ... I don't wanna get too hot, too off- too far off the co- the subject, but, you know, 2022 has been a very interesting year. And I think a lotta folks who've been doing this work have- had observed there's been a real retrenchment and a-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... retrenchment around what kinds of things can be talked about in workplaces, what kinds of trainings can take place in workplaces. And some of that has to do with- to- to Ray's point earlier, a real fragility around this conversation. So because I'm fragile and I'm uncomfortable with it, I'm going to use every excuse possible to shut these conversations down, like, "They're disruptive, they're taking away from the workplace, they're bad for culture." Any number of things because they're making me uncomfortable. And so my invitation to folks is ask that question. Is it really bad for the workplace? Is it really eroding culture? Or are you just uncomfortable with what it's bringing up for you? And if that's the case and you want to lead in 21st Century, then this is your challenge and this is your work, and you can't just ad- advocate this. This is part of what it means to lead at this point.

RAY ARATA: The- the real risk-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

RAY ARATA: ... um, that I invite everyone to consider taking at least those who look like me, and identify like me, is to step into some of your vulnerability and your humanness, because every single time I have done that, it has engendered trust. I asked an entire room full of people at the Better Man Conference in 2019. I said to the guys, "I wanna do a little experiment here," and I asked the women in the room, "If I was to admit I'm afraid, or I'm sad, or I don't have the answer to a question, or I ask for help, do you trust me more, or do you trust me less by a show of hands?"

JENNIFER BROWN: (Laughs)

RAY ARATA: So, so, I, I've been doing this work for too long, and not just this work, but men's work, to have a, more than 100 guys come up to me and just say, "Thanks for, for being vulnerable. Thanks for showing me that being human is okay." And so, I'm totally convinced that the new wave, uh, for the leader is to live and lead from the heart, which is why we have to dismantle patriarchy, change our relationship with power, and understand that privilege, uh, with choice and accountability makes, allows for shift to happen.

So that's, that's why I'm gonna keep, with the Love Club, just keep... I'm gonna keep going after this, because the tipping point is gonna get closer, and closer, and closer, and, and if it takes the rest of my life, so be it.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Hmm. And let's not let the world divide us into the privileged and the not-privileged. You know, I'm just so tired of the binary.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, um, I think we've pushed away so many people that could be-

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... today's and tomorrow's change agents-

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... because of the way we deal with n-, not getting it right, wi-, the way we deal with somebody at the, in the early stages of a learning journey, which, by the way, we can never predict where that person's gonna go. You cannot.

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: You cannot, and I've been surprised over and over again. But, but we act as if, like, God, we forget that we, somebody showed us grace. It's amazing-

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... uh, when we get on our high horse and say, "Well, I know this, and I know that." And then you're just, you know, you're useless, or you're a waste of time, or you're c-, you're causing harm, or you're not. You know, you just need to not be a part of this, and I, I also think it's not very practical, because we need a partnership with those with power to progress where we need to go.

RAY ARATA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: So that's...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: That's real. That's real.

JENNIFER BROWN: (Laughs)

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I think that's where I've felt like, um, even with my book, I had some, when I've had pushback, it has been around the "why create more space and get more airtime to white men." And it's-

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh, that...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... to me, there's a couple of things that have gone on there. You know, there's a, there's a, hey, that's my choice, right? Like, you know, if I, do I have a, do I have space and autonomy to use my skills and gifts, and my experience in the ways that make sense for me? But then, there's also, I think, this other thing that you just named, which I think folks seem to, we have to wrestle with, just deal with as well, which is a practical phen-, practical reality of, of industry in our society, of, of, of, of sort of existing hierarchy, in that folks aren't just going to go away, because you wish them away, right? That's not... And that, m-, m-, m-, we could put aside for the fact that I have, that's not what I'm shooting for, but that's just not a reality.

And so if it's the case that we're trying to actually, you know, work and be on a path, then as a, a woman that I really, really admire... Her name is Loretta Ross. She says, and she uses the term "problematic allies." You know, there's a lot of folks that are, we have to create a kind of sort of understanding that there are folks who are just, who are allies, but they're problematic. And that doesn't mean that they're not allies, but it means that there's work that we needs to do, we need to do with them.

I would much rather, in every day, every single day of the week, have a problematic ally over somebody who is, you know, you know, a complete and absolute, you know, indifferent, or, or antagonistic to my, to the causes that I care for and care about. Because if you're a problematic ally, at least it means that you're in it. That means that you're at least wrestling and working with it, and therefore, you're like me, an imperfect being trying to go through this process of moving cl-, closer and closer towards some kind of perfection.

Like, there is this sort of self-righteous that can exist sometime in this work, and that self-righteousness can get in the way of our ability to see who might actually be willing to show up for us at times. I have been guilty of at times in my life. I could see, I, I can name moments, and have seen and experienced it in moments. And I look back on them. I'm like, ugh, you know, I got on my high horse a little bit high that time, you know, and I, I really kind of... I laid it down a little bit, you know, and I was in that moment, in that spirit.

And then, I've had opportunities to go back and do some repair, or at least folks have invited me for the opportunity to do some repair. And so, it's, it's, this is messy work. It's not gonna not be messy. We're trying to address and deal with hundreds of years of harm. Like, how is it not gonna be at times messy for all folks? I think to Ray's point, though, it's like, don't make me do all the messy work, please.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Don't put all the messy work back on me. Like, why can't you be messy with me? I'm asking white guys, like, be messy with me. We're all being messy right now. Like, it's okay, but you can't try to only wanna, you wanna be clean, and only have it be, you know, done, and, and when you can have it really perfectly. I, if I'm gonna be messy, and I'm gonna do the work, and everybody else, and Jennifer's gonna do the work, and all the other folks are gonna do the work, then we're just saying come do and join us, and do it, too.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's right.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I, I, I have a question, though, I wanna put back to you, which is, like, something that I think came up in the questions that we were presented with beforehand, which I think is just the, the, the question, this, I'm curious about the definition of the, this sort of definitional, you know, how we're defining the term, and how are you defining the term that we're like, to clearly articulate. Because I heard you, Jennifer, talk about it already a little bit in the ways you defined it, and I think you have your own definite-, your, not your own definitions, Ray, but I think there are definitions. And I think that's where we get stuck.

I think folks have very... You know, they hear the word "privilege," and let's be clear. They hear male privilege, or white privilege, or Ameri-... They don't, they're not thinking of privilege, just like when hear "diversity," they hear race, and they hear black. Like, folks have triggers for... They have, like... They're... So I'm curious, like, how are you using the term, and how can we better use the term to be more of what we are talking about in this conversation, to do more of the work, which is to shift the sort of, the, the sort of the dynamic that might exist in, in some of your work? Like, wha-, what does the term need to mean, and how do we do that shifting work?

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm. Well, I think we're given, we're, we're, things happen to us in life, and we are, we have access to things. They come with a, to me, an instruction manual. Like, you know, I wonder why I was born the way I was, into the family I was, and the identities that I was. And I realize, I think it was all meant to position me to then go on stage and show what somebody looks like who's talking about this, who's talking about where I was born, w-, what I had access to, how I was safe, how I was, um, educated, how I was financially supported, how I wasn't, um, hungry.

Uh, but I was also meant to, you know, love somebody of the same gender, and experience the, the sheer fear and terror, or of my gender, and being this gender in this world, and feeling unsafe so much, like we all, we all know in a w-, different way than you two know. Um, so, so all of that can be true, and I just wish that we get this binary... We're such binary creatures.

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Could a bunch of things be true? Like, could I benefit from tailwinds and face some headwinds at the same time? Like, you know, I, I just think this requires this, um, a pause, removal of the ego, the humility to see any given system around you. Are you an insider in that system? What makes you an insider? Because of the color of your skin, because of who you know, because of your social and socioeconomic background, because of the way you speak? You know, or where are you an outsider? And noticing these things, and then operating from this place of, that, that's, that's seeing, that knowing, and the utilization then of, okay, so I could say this. I could do this. I could push this. I could name this. I could challenge this, without as much risk.

You both have been talking about let's be real about risk. Like, I love, Dax, that you just said, "Let's be honest." Like, who's really taking risk here? I always say that, too, when I work with white male leaders. I'm like, okay, hold on. Like, how does it feel for a trans person, a loved one of mine, to walk through the world? You wanna talk about risk (laughs)? You know, like, you wanna talk about, like, sending your child, you're a black parent of a black kid, and, like, you wanna talk about the talk that you have about driving?

You know, you w-, you know, let's really be honest about this, right? Like, don't throw that up and say, "Well, I cannot, I can't do the hard thing."

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Like, let's be honest. But, um, so I just think that, that that perspective needs to happen, and then we need to utilize the ingredients of us. And we can have lots of what looks like maybe contradictory elements, but I don't, I don't think it's useful to see them that way. I just think that they're, you know, they are the soup of us. And-

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm, yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... my accountability to myself every day is to say, "How am I showing up to honor my authenticity, my true identities, and be comfortable being uncomfortable about speaking my truths that are hard to speak, because they're stigmatized?" And then, how can I also be speaking about, and voicing the ways that life has been designed for me, to be, to be comfortable, to be safe, to be successful, to be sped along? That doesn't make me a bad person that that's happened.

RAY ARATA: No. No.

JENNIFER BROWN: I think the bad, the bad person, if I could, it, just in quotes, is one who's completely unaware of all of that, and is sort of, assumes that what, what is easier for us is somehow, you know, earned, and therefore doesn't come with a responsibility in the world. That, and that may be where I differ from some people. I take that responsibility really strongly, um, and I, I don't know how to get leaders there. Because that's kind of a heart transformation, right? That's a-

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... like, th-, that's a, that, that takes that sort of leader who's not even having this conversation, and says to that person, "Do you want to leave a legacy? Like, is it important to you to examine what system you've been born into, and what system you have access to, and what you're doing with that?" Sometimes I find there isn't a caring about that. There isn't a motivation-

RAY ARATA: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... to look at that. Okay, but to your point, Dax, what kind of leader are you gonna be if you do not dive into that? Like, how are you going to be effective with other humans today and tomorrow as the world changes? So then I sort of pivot in to say, like, what kind of person do you wanna be, and what kind of legacy and difference do you wanna make, not just to your teams, but to your families, your children, to your significant other, you know, to your community? This is a huge opportunity of transformation, but it's not D&I. It's so much bigger than that. This is literally, like, healing...

DAX DEVLON ROSS: It's human shift. This is human shift. This is a human shift.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: You ab-, yep, that's, that's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: It's human shift (laughs).

RAY ARATA: You know, it, it, it's, just answering for, for myself and those that identify like me, uh, to your point, Jen, to pose that rhetorical question, legacy, that's, that's a little further out there, and absolutely necessary. But I wanna bring it right here, right now, to them, in that how do you wanna be experienced right now? How do you wanna be seen? And, and when I talk, and, and I've been doing this work for a while. So as long as a guy has a reason why he wants to put himself on the path of being an inclusionary leader, it might be because of his mom, his daughter, his, a female colleague. It might just because he believes it's the moral thing to do. So it's the moral case. There's the personal case.

He might even get that it's good business. There's only one case that doesn't work, and that's the dinosaur case.

JENNIFER BROWN: (Laughs)

RAY ARATA: If he's gonna be back there with his arms folded, trying to hold onto the way things have been, then he's gonna go into extinction. And so, I would much rather invite all of us, and f-, from a, from a, I, to answer your question, Dax, around how do I define privilege-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: ... it's just, I've been given some advantages that others don't, and soon as I could recognize what some of those advantages are, then I can ask that question, the questions that Jennifer and I are posing. And if the answers are anything but the dinosaur case, then the big, glaring word is "choice." What are you gonna choose to do? If you choose to use it for good, if you choose to be a human being, if you choose to help other people, if you choose to include yourself, because those are all good answers. People have asked me, "Ray, why do you use your privilege? What do you get out of it?" And I'm like, that's a good question. You know, what I, I get to learn.

I get to remember that I don't have to do it all, which is a man-box driven, I'm supposed to do it all, which means I get release, relief. I get to feel supported, instead of waking up. I'm a white alpha male dude, gotta figure it out, don't want anybody to know that I don't have the answer. So to me, privilege is a gateway.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Totally. I love that.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's beautiful.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I love that. I love that. I love that. I was gonna ask you the question, like, and you answered it already, which is the, is the what is it, what is it like for you. You know, I, my, my experience of you, Ray, has always, in, you know, since we've known each other now has been. There's a, um- there's a levity, there's freedom, there's a way that we can interact that feels, like, un- unencumbered by certain things. There's respect. There's a- there's a- there's a- a respect and regard, but I definitely feel like there's always a, um- there's a sense that you just have l- that you're- that- that- that because you've engaged and chosen, you actually, like- you recognize your life has benefited because of it. And not just because you get to do the work, but because you're- therefore your entire life has benefited, and been bene- and I think that's where I- in my book I- part of one of the things that was of impetus for me writing the book was that, we often talk about race and racism and the ways in which it impacts people of color or folks who have been minoritized, and we look at the harms and we have this sort of pitiable sort of framework that we use to kind of talk about it that says, oh, what has- what has been done to people of color? It's so bad.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And I look at the other side, I'm like, well, what's also been done to white people as a result of this? How does this disconnect you from your own humanity? How does- and- and then I try to give folks examples of, like, you know, when have you- when you- when you drive- when you drive through a- a community, a predominately Black community, what do you experience? What do you feel and what do you think? Do you feel any connection and relationship to it? Do you feel as though the- is it- it- does it strike fear and sense of threat? Because if it does, that can also be telling you some- that's important data.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And that data might give you some information about some beliefs you might hold about their experience of their humanity that is only through your lens, which is not their shared re- not their actual reality. You know?

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And so therefore you might be missing out on things too, 'cause- so that's my thing, is that there's a lot that you're missing out on. Not just talent that you're not seeing, you know, but- but- but relationships that you're not having, conversations you're not being- you're not engaged in. Um, just all sorts of things that I- I- I- I want folks to feel like that they can benefit from. And that's- I know what it's meant for my life-

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... to be able to have a diversity group, a diverse group of friends and relationships and people I'm in deep, you know, community with. And I'm just say- I'm imagining what it would be like to not have that, and I think that there would be some significant limitations in my ability to have perspective and to have the kind of emotional intelligence that will allow me to tap into and be connected with people. And I think that those are real leadership qualities that, especially in the 21st century, we need.

That- I'll- I'll kinda put a pin in at at this point, where I just finished reading an article last night, in this is no way to single him out as a sin- s- specific individual, but it's a really good article on Starbucks and about, um, Howard Schultz and about his efforts over the last year to sort of bring- you know, to- to address some of the challenges that he- that Starbucks has been facing, particularly with unions and, um- and then, you know, across the country, and of course, the pandemic and the exacerbation of COVID and all those sorts of things.

But- but one of the things that, it's very apparent from my- you know, my read of this, and looking at the comments and looking at- it's that he- there's a- there's- there's a- a force that is being, um, thrust into or upon sort of these traditional leaders where they're being asked to not just sort of reflect on, you know, how they've arranged organizations and leadership, but actually share power, and recognize that that is a really new thing for people, and I think it's really hard for folks to do because it's a- a deep dis- it's a deep maybe mistrust or distrust that people won't use power that's, uh, uh- they won't u- we won't use- folks of color, you know, we won't use it responsibly.

And I go back to this idea that I think all of us- I think for me, fundamentally, I believe that we all really want to see, whether it's our corporation, our organization, our family, our community, we all want to see every- uh, we all want to see thriving. It's not as if that b- by- by sharing the load, by giving- creating space for others to be centered, the objective is to drive down quality or to, like, run the business- that's not what- that's not what this is about. It's a recognition that there are- you know, there are blind spots, gaps. There are things that can be filled. There are ways in which we can all be activated to become more, you know, involved and invested partners and growing and developing. I think it's just really hard for folks who have been groomed and- and raised in a- in a kind of work environment, office environment, leadership environment where the center has been the CEO, the leader, the person, to understand that what folks are calling for and asking for now is something different.

They're not asking for you to fix everything. They're not asking for you to have every answer right now. They're not- and they believe- we believe that c- an- collective answers can be a way to solve some of the problems. Not all the problems. And that's a really invitation to shift, which is hard who folks who spent their careers, I think, building up, um, sort of, a- a perception of their competence built around their own ability to solve problems-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... or a small group of people's ability solve problems when we have a lot more folks who are saying, there is- there- there are answers out there. Let's use the technology. Let's use the opportunity. Let's use all of these different things to shift for ourselves in the future. And that's just- that's the call I see. And that's the invitation I see. And I'd like to see it hopefully answered more but it's- I- the jury's still out a little bit more on me- for me on that right now, unfortunately. I'm- I'm- you know, I'm not sure.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I'm hopeful. I'm hopeful though. I'm always hopeful. Always.

JENNIFER BROWN: Me too. Hope springs eternal. This has been amazing. Ugh, I hope the audience, uh, they're loving this conversation, they're loving you. This is the kinda thing that happens and- and- and whenever together, and will happen at the conference, everybody. So if you're listening to this, please, you know, make that investment or suggest to a leader that you feel is on the cusp of some of the things that we've talked about, suggest that they come and make this investment in themselves. It's such a special, rare gathering and energy. And for me, you know, if you're- as a- as a cisgender female, I'm in that room feeling like I'm watching the birth of... Like, the hope that keeps me going-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... is seeing- hearing both of you speak about what this means to you and knowing that you can't be the only ones. But you need to see each other in community. You need to witness each other and see how big this largely, perhaps, silent community is, that is asking these questions, that wants to do better and do more. Um, and- and the- and just to see it sort of, to g- gather in the gathering in November is the most powerful experience for somebody like me. And Dax, I'm looking forward to having you be there for the first time, and, um, feeling that, because, um, it- it gives us that stamina to, you know, fight another day-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... for the future-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... that we want to create together.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: That's right. That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: Absolutely.

RAY ARATA: So- so, Dax, I have a question for you. You know, when I first met you through your book and I was, like, reading the- reading your book, you have a- a v- a- a style, uh, it's more than approachability, it's a disarming, relating way of talking that I took on no shame. I took on no blame. I felt called to. I felt responsible. I felt, um, determined. So for the people in the audience, and let's just start with the- the men, um, what is it that you want them to hear and understand? And before you answer that, I think I told you, in my book-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

RAY ARATA: ... I wrote a chapter called Too Often Excluded Voices of Masculinity.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

RAY ARATA: And I interviewed a bunch of men, um, about what healthy masculinity meant to them and what they wanted anybody who wanted to step into allyship in support of them to understand.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

RAY ARATA: Is there- take a stab.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: I think that, like- I think that, um, one of the things that has both, like, been a bit... Uh, a- as a Black man who's written this book and has written in this way, I often find that there's a- a- a wondering around, like, what can I offer to this conversation, you know? And what I try to say is that I- I- I use this sort of, I was in class with you, I was- you know, you- we were your best man- I was your best man at your weddings. I'm- I- I've been in your life and in your relationship and the work all- for all the- the entire time, and quite often, I've been invisibilized, I've been marginalized because of, you know, the identity I hold, the racial identity I hold.

And it's often assumed that I'm not witnessing and watching and observing and processing the data that might be able to help you, because both I share this- this sort of male hetero cis, uh, you know- you might know, I share aspects of identity, but then I also have this other layer of my identity that is allowing me to see the l- the- the life in the world through the prison of minoritization, being subordinated, being often stereotyped and assumed to not have or be able to or X, Y, and Z. And so I- I can both share the- the sort of- some of those masculine experiences in a sort of hyper-masculine society, a patriarchal society.

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: But also, I have this other thing to juxtapose it with, and it's been refined over 40-some years.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: So- which is to say that there is some wisdom that possibly I could share with you. And not to you-

RAY ARATA: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... but with you, right? 'Cause that's a big part of it. This is not a, me dumping, uh, knowledge on parting, it's a conversation. So you used the word disarming. Part of what it's about is that this is- this is- this is me only trying to share what has been true and deep and connected to my experience. So I would only offer the folks-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... I hope you come, and I said it in the chat, because I do- I don't believe growth happens in isolation. You don't think that you can just read the books on your own and do the podcasts on your own and only have the one on one conversation with the one person you trust and think you're gonna grow. There's gonna be a cap to that. At some point, you have to come out and push yourself into a community where you can be vulnerable enough to do some other and additional learning and be c- and celebrate this work that you- and accomplishments that you have made, but also the growth yet to come, and that happens with other people.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: And so I do feel like that's one of the things that men in general struggle with-

RAY ARATA: Yes.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: ... and particularly white men struggle with, when it comes to these conversations. So that's my invitation. Come out of the space of needing to be and feeling like you can figure it out. You cannot do it only in- in isolation. It has to be done in community, 'cause accountability happens in community. Accountability happens in community.

JENNIFER BROWN: Hear, hear.

RAY ARATA: And all of this is done with heart, I can guarantee that. There's- there's no other way, and it's the mir- it's the small miracles, and we talked about this in men's circles, come in, witness, be witnessed, have the realization that you're not alone.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

RAY ARATA: Which gives you fuel.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

RAY ARATA: So, over to you, Jen. Um, uh, our producer, our backstage producer, was telling us-

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

RAY ARATA: ... telling me, we were supposed to be finished eight minutes ago, but we're having such a great time. So we want to be conscious of-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yes.

RAY ARATA: ... of your busy days. So, uh, Jen, um- well, actually, I'll say thank you, Dax, very much for your-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

RAY ARATA: ... contribution today.

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Thanks for having me.

RAY ARATA: And Jen, as always-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Thank you for having me.

RAY ARATA: ... um, we're getting closer to- you know, we're already sharing the stage, but this has been great to do this with you and I really look forward to the conference on November 2nd. And I'll leave it to you to close this out.

JENNIFER BROWN: What an honor. Thank you so much, both of you. And, uh, I just- it- it- it- it gives me- it breathes wind into my sails to listen to you, to imagine others being influenced by you, to witness your- your deep self-knowing and your humility and the way you role model with every single thing you say that- that, you know, you're- real, you're authentic, you're not perfect. You know, you're- you're trying to figure these things out too, and I think s- the most brilliant teachers are ones that I think bring themselves as learners into the space, and you both do that so beautifully. And I love seeing it and I know that, um, that's what we need. So, thank you for- thank you for bringing and being so present and bringing this and your voice. And thanks in advance, Dax, for joining. And I'm gonna miss being in the physical space with both of you. It's just not gonna be the same, but I know-

RAY ARATA: No.

JENNIFER BROWN: I know it's powerful to do this from two coasts and sort of-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... capture that amazing virtual audience, and then the two in-person audiences and the way that we're gonna do that is trying to make it as inclusive as possible. I'm- I'm really excited to experiment with that too, so-

DAX DEVLON ROSS: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... I hope everybody listening will consider joining us, please, in any way you can. And, um, thanks. Much love to both of you. Couldn't do it alone.

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Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website, over at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion, and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

DOUG FORESTA: You've been listening to The Will to Change: Uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit JenniferBrownSpeaks.com. Thank you for listening and we'll be back next time with a new episode.