Leading from the "Messy Middle": An Imperfect Journey Toward Inclusion

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Jennifer Brown:

Hello, Will to Changers. It's Jennifer. And I sit with this question, why does it seem increasingly difficult to be in conversation with each other? And, who's missing from these conversations, as a result?

We all know it's become more difficult than ever to practice the imperfect art of allyship, however we identify, because there are few spaces where we can return to the building blocks of inclusion. Places where we can deepen our self-awareness. We can analyze how trust is built, and unearth our story, and practice both sharing and listening. As such, we are very excited to announce the very first Better Together conference, a series of virtual conversations and workshops aimed to foster learning, connection, trust, and empathy. With the intent of articulating a vision for true partnership that includes and enlists all of us.

So whether you're looking to level up your allyship, or aren't sure where you fit into the inclusion equation, this two-day event will enhance your competence and confidence to hold meaningful and authentic conversations that build bridges across differences. So I would love to see any and all of you joining us for the virtual two-day event. The dates are October 18th and 19th, 2023, so it's just around the corner. And you can learn more about the conference and secure your ticket at jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. That's jenniferbrownconsulting.com/better-together. We hope you'll come back to the conversations that matter.

Jennifer Brown:

So basically, I think of it like soil and a seed. You have a hard ground, and you try to plant a seed in hard ground. The seed is the talent, of the incoming talent, but the ground of an organization hasn't changed fundamentally in years. Or you haven't changed, or the leaders in your company haven't changed. And that mindset is that hard ground. It's like, "No, I'm not going to accept anything that is not what's worked for me, and what's worked for us in the past. And I'm not going to believe what you say about what this ground really feels like every day. I'm not going to believe it, because it wasn't my experience. It feels fine to me. Why does it not feel fine for you?"

And it's funny, we laugh about it, but I mean the number of times I've heard executives say, "What do you mean we have a challenge? We have women, we have these people. Look at all these folks. I'm inclusive." And I can tell you, we study organizations, and employees tell us otherwise. And it doesn't mean you're a bad leader or a bad person. It means that probably you're not paying attention.

Doug Foresta:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results.

Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty. And now, on to the episode.

Hello, and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. This episode you're about to hear was originally recorded for the Workforce Central Podcast, and features the conversation between Jennifer and host Ron Painter. Jennifer talks about how leaders can foster a sense of belonging among employees, especially in a hybrid work environment. She also shares strategies for understanding and supporting a multi-generational, neurodiverse workforce, and how leaders can create an atmosphere of psychological safety and respond quickly to issues in order to retain talent.

All this and more. And now, on to the conversation

Ron Painter:

Today, we're going to be in some ways getting an update from somebody that we had the pleasure of having at Forum, I think Jennifer, a couple of years ago. But it was great to have you there. I know a lot of people walked away with really good information. So I want to say welcome Jennifer Brown, to the podcast, for I guess an update, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, I like that. I like that. Let's do it, Ron.

Ron Painter:

All right. Jennifer Brown is an award-winning entrepreneur, diversity and inclusion consultant, speaker, which I can attest to, an incredible speaker, and an author. And she is the founder of her own firm, Jennifer Brown Consulting, but she has some other things. She's a columnist for the CEO World Magazine. She's an author of How to Be an Inclusive Leader, and we're going to talk, I hope, a lot about leadership today. And a lot about belonging. So Jennifer, again, it is great to... We're actually on Zoom, so I get to see you. We won't, on the podcast, but it's great to see you. And thanks for joining me.

Jennifer Brown:

Pleased to be here, and talk about this topic. Thanks.

Ron Painter:

This is a, I don't know, I guess we can't any longer say this is an extraordinary time. This is just an unusual time, and we've had a focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and I kind of now add belonging to that. And you talked about it at the forum, want to get a little bit of an update today, because in the past we've talked about diversity and inclusion. It's really been more about, I think, the emphasis has more been about race, ethnicity, sexual orientation. But today with a very tight labor market, that notion of inclusion and belonging is perhaps a little broader. Where are we today, I guess? We have, public discourse is really, really wild and really, really separates us. What's the state of this world, today?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, well we have gone through a huge kind of crest, I would say. Mainly in 2020, for all kinds of reasons. George Floyd, pandemic, being grounded in our homes. And sort of just all of a sudden, many of us, waking up to the problem. And particularly the state of the discomfort and toxicity that so many people have experienced in the workplace, but have never had the voice to articulate. So the way I see what has happened, particularly in 2020, 2021, is all that came to the fore, all that was heard. It was sort of released into the ether.

Now, I've always been studying it, and have known that these undercurrents are very, unconscious bias is throughout every organization. It doesn't matter who you are, and in ourselves, not just in the organizations but in ourselves. And sometimes conscious bias, right? But most often unconscious, because I'm an optimist, I like to believe people are teachable, we are flexible, we want to be better people, we want to grow. But it has been unconscious for a lot of us.

So we had this huge kind of outpouring, and lesson and learnings, and organizations made themselves accountable in that time, in an unprecedented way. To say, "We're going to address this. We are not going to forget it. We are going to track our progress. We are going to be better. And here are the ways that we will measure that, what better looks like, what success looks like." And I think coming out of that era, many commitments were made. Now the interesting thing, sitting here in 2023 is, how many promises have been kept? How much action has happened? Was it what we call performative, over the last couple of years, and really was never intended to really change the way business gets done?

And there's a bit of cynicism this year, I would say, at least in my circles. And even in me. But it almost feels like we're back in 2019, in some ways. Like, "What just happened? And what is sticking? Have we really changed the threshold of expectations?" But you also have to zoom way out and say, "There are real changes afoot that are creating the need for lots of attention to DEIB, DEIB, which is the acronym that strings all the things together you just said, that are happening and are continuing to happen. And those aren't changing. And those are demographic changes with younger talent, those are younger consumers, those are the values of those generations which are very overtly inclusive.

And I think that is a huge change, and that's been happening. This is not new, but that is not changing, that is progress that's happening. And brands and companies and organizations need to pay attention to that, regardless of what has happened over the last couple of years. And if anything, the need is more pressing to focus on that, and sign up to respond to that in a skilled way, in a competent way. And that's not going away. That's not something that's going to ebb and flow with the tide.

Ron Painter:

Do you think, it's still a tight labor market.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah.

Ron Painter:

We still hear employers talking about having a hard time finding the skills they need, or literally finding the number of people that they need. I don't like the word forced, but has that kept the conversation about diversity and inclusion, has that kept it alive or brought more energy to it? Because we are struggling to find that labor force?

Jennifer Brown:

I do think so, yes. I think companies are having to look everywhere, and the job seekers are I think more empowered. I love to think of the fact that interviews for jobs are like a mutual conversation. Like, "What are the values that you carry Company One organization? How do you demonstrate those?" And the transparency for job seekers around company culture, and what a company's commitment is, are they walking the talk? A lot of that is on display. I mean, we are literally every day reading five new headlines about companies missing the mark, companies being held accountable for saying one thing and doing another, or looking a certain way internally versus trying to present an image, otherwise.

It's really interesting times of accountability. Companies are really stuck in the middle right now. There's a lot of pressure coming from all sides, for employers. That we've got the younger talent saying, "Well, you're not adhering to what you committed, and you're sort of missing the mark, and you need to be better." And then we've got, might I say sort of the more conservative voices saying, "Your company is going too far, in terms of your social commitments, and signaling that you support certain things that we don't think having anything to do with business and are a distraction, or worse." Witness the Silicon Valley Bank failure being blamed on the woke capitalism, and the distraction of the leaders with all of the DEI initiative. I wish DEI initiatives were so powerful that they could distract an entire institution and make them fail. That's actually not possible. But anyway, but that was what was said.

So really interesting pressure. I think the pressure is escalated on organizations, and it's sort of a stuck in the middle dynamic, and I'm loving kind of watching how they're threading the needle, because it's really getting real.

Ron Painter:

That semi answers what I was going to ask, and that was, you do a lot of work with corporations around these issues. Are you finding the executives, or CEOs that you talk to, you mentioned they're really caught in the middle. Is this something like, "We said that we're going to do this, we're going to increase our outreach, we're going to be more inclusive." Whether that is again, race, ethnicity, sexual orientation. Or whether somebody has a disability, or whether they're coming out of they're reentering the labor force from incarceration, or from wherever. Do you see, again, is that pressure continuing to build? Is it more prevalent? Do you have more executives coming to you saying, "Jennifer, now what the hell do I do?"

Jennifer Brown:

Yes, there is an overwhelm, because... And it's a good thing. The good thing to me is that we are expanding the conversation beyond what we call race and gender, which was traditionally the focus of so many initiatives for many, many decades. When they existed. And they haven't existed in many companies, but some companies I work with have been doing this for 40 years, so this is not new stuff. But what is really, I think, exciting is how inclusive diversity and inclusion is getting, of disabilities and neurodiversity, and those with previous conviction histories. And because we're having to look under every rock for talent, it's driving an expansion of those dimensions that are being acknowledged for the first time.

We're also dealing with a big mental health crisis amongst our workforce, both existing and incoming, that is not really, I think, resourced adequately or even acknowledged. And that is being experienced across the board, as are other challenges like caregiving, parenting, trauma, chronic illness, gender identity. That's a whole thing that's happening, especially for younger people coming in and challenging companies to change their language, and be more inclusive of that.

So the list is growing, and yet I think this is such a wonderful opportunity actually to enable certain people to feel included in the DEI conversation. Because traditionally, if I didn't identify as a female, if I didn't identify as a Black or brown person, if I didn't identify as LGBTQ+, there has been an assumption by many, many that, "This has nothing to do with me. This isn't my thing. Somebody's going to tell me what to do. I don't have skin in the game. This is a fad." The forms of resistance and apathy and a sort of cluelessness about this, and the assumption that, "This doesn't touch me, this doesn't touch my life," I think that's becoming less realistic to say.

Because it does touch your life. It does touch your life, if we define it in a more inclusive way, all of us know someone with a disability, a third of us will have a disability at some point in our lifetimes. We have children who are challenging us on a whole host of diversity dimensions. Our team members will be experiencing something related to their identity, and our productivity will be impacted as a result.

So success for leaders, I say today to every leader, "You must have a competency in this," and, "You must find yourself in it, because you are in it. If you think you aren't, you're probably not correct. And you may be correct today, but wrong tomorrow. And it's all around us, and it's this big opportunity for a leader to lead differently." This is my message when I speak to senior leaders to say, "What got you here won't get you there, as a leader. So what's fundamentally changing is your ability to lead across difference and build psychological safety, build trust, enable belonging. So people feel that they can contribute because they feel solid, they feel safe, they feel like they're standing on a good foundation. That is everything. That is your currency."

Ron Painter:

So if I'm in senior leadership, or I aspire to be in senior leadership, and I'm coming to you. And I'm seeing my labor force, I'm seeing it change, and I want to talk about hybrid work at some point, but I see my labor force changing. It looks different than it used to. It talks differently than it used to. And that's, to me, I don't want to say good or bad, but we've sort of opened the Pandora's box about, "Maybe what I used to feel and I would choke it back, or I wouldn't say it, it now kind of seems like anything goes. I can say anything I want to, and somehow I have the right to say that." Or, "People have given me, apparently, the right to say that." So I'm a leader and I'm coming to you and I'm saying, "Holy crap, Jennifer." Again, "Now what do I do?" What do you say to them as the first things you can do, is you look at this very different labor force?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah. Well, I think you need to... So we are so informed by our own experience, and our own lens, and they're like blinders that we have on. They are our unconscious bias, they are the things that we don't know, the identities we don't understand. And I think the first opportunity is to take those off, and really begin to study the differences in this new workforce, all the identities at play, what those experiences are. I often point out to leaders, the workforce, if you are a white male leader to pick one group, the modern workplace was built to work for you. It just was built with you in mind. It was built to support you, it was built to reflect you. Because I don't think we knew how the world would change when it was built.

And it honestly hasn't changed all that much, in the decades. We're still kind of operating with this, you look at an org chart and that org chart was an industrial org chart, from the old, old, old days. Like a hundred years ago. So we are still operating in this way and I think to pick your head up and say, "Wow, so other people feel differently in this exact same system, they feel a lack of belonging. They feel excluded, because they don't see themselves reflected in leadership. They don't encounter other people with their identity on a day-to-day basis. They are hybrid." To use your example, we are hybrid too. So the risk of isolation is much greater, even now.

And the isolation comes from, and I can say this as a member of the LGBTQ+ plus community, a lot of us have been closeted at work. And you isolate yourself off because you're afraid that you will be penalized for who you are, if you show that. And that is true, not just for LGBTQ people, but you ask any woman, particularly of a certain generation, what it was like to sacrifice your own comfort, your lack of support, in terms of being promoted and advanced and thought of and put into positions so you can grow and someday be in the C-suite. We know what that was like, and what it is like.

So there are some of us, it's just very important foundationally, to understand that the same system can have completely different impacts and be experienced differently. And the reason that's a problem, I mean, I think it's apparent why that's a problem. I hope it is. If you're more comfortable relatively, and many, many others are not, and you're benefiting from a system because it's familiar to you and it works for you and in your favor, and it doesn't for others. You're just not going to get the output, just like cynically speaking, you're just not going to get the best from all this talent that you're investing in bringing in. They're not going to thrive.

So basically, I think of it like soil and a seed. You have a hard ground, and you try to plant a seed in hard ground. The seed is the talent, of the incoming talent, but the ground of an organization hasn't changed fundamentally in years. Or you haven't changed, or the leaders in your company haven't changed. And that mindset is that hard ground. It's like, "No, I'm not going to accept anything that is not what's worked for me, and what's worked for us in the past. And I'm not going to believe what you say about what this ground really feels like every day. I'm not going to believe it, because it wasn't my experience. It feels fine to me. Why does it not feel fine for you?"

And it's funny, we laugh about it, but I mean the number of times I've heard executives say, "What do you mean, we have a challenge? We have women, we have these people. Look at all these folks. I'm inclusive." And I can tell you, we study organizations, and employees tell us otherwise. And it doesn't mean you're a bad leader or a bad person, it means that probably you're not paying attention, and you're actually sort of lulled into a sense of complacency because of your comfort, because you understand how it works. Because it works for you.

But the job of a leader goes beyond what is comfortable for me. If you are not uncomfortable, you are not leading. So that's my definition of leadership. Leadership is hard, and it should be hard. And the reason it's hard is, it's not just about me. It's not just about my comfort. It's actually about the productivity of a diverse workforce. And that's an art, to literally get that whole, all that goodness singing together and producing together, you've got to acknowledge that there are fundamental differences. And then you have to jump into those and say, "What can we do to improve that?"

And you have to care. It's not just an intellectual exercise, it's also kind of a heart opening exercise to say, "Wow, I don't want the workplace to victimize people, and traumatize them, and make them feel less than because we're not going to have a company at the end of the day. We're not going to have an organization if folks are contributing literally half of their capacity because the other half of their capacity is spent every single day managing their safety and their comfort. None of us can perform, if that's the case."

Ron Painter:

Let me step out half a second and remind folks, you're listening to Workforce Central, the official podcast of the National Association of Workforce Boards from Washington DC. I'm your host Ron Painter, and my guest today is author, speaker, consultant, Jennifer Brown from Jennifer Brown and Company. And we're talking about diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging, and the role of leadership, and the role of the organization today.

Jennifer, it struck me when you were talking about that, Otto Sharmer from MIT, In Theory U, you talks about the blind spot that we all have, and how crucial it is to examine that blind spot. We've gone through, and we're still going through, we talk about human-centered design for an organization. It's really, you got to pay attention to your customer. Are we in that time when leaders really need to think about that, also internally? We've got to get out of the C-suite again, and go back to wherever it is, the factory floor, the consulting office. I mean, once upon a time we held up leaders who used to be able to walk out to the shop floor, and they knew everybody who worked there, and knew their names, knew a little bit about their family. Are we back to where the leader really needs to get back down into their labor force?

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, definitely.

Ron Painter:

Is that a skill that we've got to recapture?

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, definitely. And it's not just, it's the whole situation I think is changing, the power dynamic. Because this incoming workforce is so vocal, and so... One of their top five values is inclusiveness. So I think actually leaders, at their peril, don't do that. It's dangerous and risky to me, as a leadership strategy, to not have your finger on the pulse. And really, it's the unspoken things. In hybrid, it's very difficult to get this kind of word on the street. It's very difficult to hang around with folks informally, which is I think where we used to be able to pick up on, are folks happy? And who's happy, and who's not? And why? We're deprived of that data. And we used to, for those of us who did management by walking around, I remember that. But it's not just the, "Hey, checking in. How are you?" Like, "Hey, what's happening?" Like chat, chat.

I mean, I think what we've got to do is ask questions about belonging, somehow. And this can be done virtually as well, but the check-ins we have one-on-one with people, particularly of different identities that we don't understand, that we know we need to learn more about. The extent, I think our success is going to be predicated with, according to the trust that others have in us to tell us what's really going on, and what's really being felt. And the most talented leaders, I think I see, they respond quickly to problems. Right now we're in June, it's Pride Month, and I know a lot of organizations, they're sort of celebrating. And then they're getting pushback. And then I just heard about a leader who, they had an incident with a security guard who was destroying their Pride merchandise in their lobby. And the leader immediately sent out a note, all company-wide, saying, "This is intolerable. This will not be accepted here. We value our LGBTQ employees, and this is not okay. And it's a zero tolerance."

And it was this great message, and it was timely, it was direct, it was unafraid, it was unabashed. It was very certain to say, "No matter what, we're here for our employees of all identities." And so the leader's, A, ability to respond quickly and with confidence, that's something I would put on the short list of leader capabilities now. And in order to do that, I think you have to know a bit about different identities, and you have to have trusted people you can call and say, "What do I do now? How do I respond? And what's most important for me as a leader to say, so that people hear what our commitment is?"

And I think that's incredibly important. That is retention exercise number one. But you've got to know, you've got to kind of be listening and be in the conversation, to a degree. Otherwise, silence is interpreted as complicity. And unfortunately, there are such voices on the other side against inclusion these days, that not doing anything, not saying anything, that will be read as, "I am not supported here. I don't have a future here. I may as well be looking elsewhere." So I try to communicate to leaders, whether you agree or disagree, it's kind of to me, beside the point. I mean, we could have another conversation about that. But in the meantime, leading, leading a multi identity workforce means that you show up and you say, "This is not okay, because here, we value all these differences, and these differences are super critical to our ability to function and thrive, and be innovative. And we value you."

And this generation wants to hear that, "I'm valued, I'm important, I have a contribution to make." We laugh about it, and it's a bit of not what we were given, you and I, Ron. In our day. In our day, it took many years to meet the CEO, right?

Ron Painter:

Yes.

Jennifer Brown:

If it ever happened. And now, the expectation is CEOs have round tables with employees at all levels to say, "Tell me what's going on. Tell me what you feel like, here. Tell me what your experience is like, and what could be better. Tell me why you would stay, and tell me what's getting in the way of you doing your best work here." If you are not asking those questions on a regular basis, you are uninformed. And I've warned leaders, being uninformed is a dangerous place to be. You want to want to be ready, you want to be prepared, you want to be knowledgeable. You don't have to know everything, but you do need to know enough to understand the right moment to communicate that you matter, and you want to make sure you do that skillfully.

And that is not something you just wake up knowing how to do. There's an investment of time that you need to make, to be the fly on the wall, to enter spaces where you don't see anyone that looks like you as the leader. And listen and learn, and ask questions. And hopefully, if you're lucky enough, you'll be mentored by the younger workforce in the best way. And I mean, somebody stepping forward and saying, "I'd love to share with you what it's like to be in my identity, in this company, in this organization, and what I think would make it better." Those are gifts. Those are very important gifts given to those of us who are in a generation where, we're going to be clueless, and not a lot of us are very competent, I would say. Because of a whole lot of reasons.

So connections, and asking for education, and really being humble as a senior leader to say, "Here's all the things I don't know. Here's what I am learning. Here's what I need to know, so that I can lead better." That's the game.

Ron Painter:

Again, the old walking around, how has that changed now that... And we see pressure of companies saying, "Well, you got to come back to work," and employees saying, "No, thanks."

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah.

Ron Painter:

How does this sense of belonging, how do you communicate that when we may never have met? I may have hired you, and you're working for me, and you're living in another state, another country. Is that another, do the same sort of procedures apply? Do I need to figure out how I do round tables with my virtual employees, or what's kind of the approach?

Jennifer Brown:

So I think, fortunately or unfortunately, hybrid makes it harder. But it should bring DEI more top of mind, meaning that, it's just we've got to be more proactive in our outreach and connections, and opening the door. Because I think if you're a manager, particularly a leader, you going first is how it's going to happen. You making the overture is really important. If we wait for others to make the overture to us, that may never happen. And we may lose some really amazing people because we never knew that they were on the edge. We just never knew.

And if you don't know things as a leader, I say shame on you. And fortunately or unfortunately, this may make our job harder, but it's a wonderful opportunity to zoom in and check in, and create different private conversations. This isn't just one to many, this isn't always the group. This is different ways of getting feedback. Some people are very introverted and prefer to send maybe feedback over email. So maybe it's not always a face-to-face on Zoom, but I would say we have to be much more intentional and much more granular in understanding, person by person. What is their experience? "Do you feel on this team? Is there any feedback you'd give about the way you like to work?" I mean, I'm discovering with neurodiversity for example, and there's a large percentage of our workforce that's neurodiverse, and is probably-

Ron Painter:

Explain that to me. What do you mean by neurodiversity?

Jennifer Brown:

Sure. So neurodiversity just speaks to, I identify as neurotypical. Neurodiverse might mean that I am somewhere on the autism spectrum, it may mean that I am ADHD, it may mean that I'm dyslexic. It may mean that I experience something like a Tourette's, as a neurodiversity. So it's a thinking difference. And that comes through, can be, if it's not understood and it's stigmatized. So if it's not disclosed, and then it's not understood and respected as just another thinking style that we can incorporate, and I have direct experience with this. My neurodiverse team members are some of my most brilliant team members. I mean, they've been with me for years, but it's been so illuminating to adjust when and how I present information to them, how I enable them to dictate the best way they can make a contribution. And also to understand tone, and level of detail, and time to prepare. And forums to ask questions.

There's many, many things, and there's so much written about this online, by the way. So if you're listening to this, and I mean, I would imagine a lot of parents that are listening to this probably are grappling with neurodiversity in their kiddos, too. So this is actually a big conversation with parents right now, as I understand it. But anyway, so it's just one example of leaving room for and creating an intentional conversation to understand. "Are you getting what you need in our team processes, in the way that you give input or ask for input? Is there something else we could do to make you most comfortable?"

It's kind of like when you have a disability and you need an accommodation, it's the same conversation, which is also something I think that is poorly understood and supported. And so we're sitting here at home, and actually working from home has enabled some of us to be much more comfortable, actually, contributing. We have our accommodations around us. We're sort of set up for success, in some ways, that we weren't in "the office". Quote, unquote. I mean, even introverts are living their best life, working remotely. Right? So [inaudible 00:34:44].

Ron Painter:

I find one of the downsides is, I yell downstairs what I want for lunch and nothing happens, because I live alone. So nothing happens, nobody's making lunch. That, to me, is the downside of this.

Jennifer Brown:

It's true. No coworkers to commiserate with. It's true.

Ron Painter:

Hey, Jennifer, if I want to learn more about your work, and you mentioned neurodiversity, where can I find more information? How do I get back in touch?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, well, so we publish a lot of thought leadership, on a lot of different things. So I would really recommend getting on our mailing lists, and visiting us at Jennifer Brown Consulting or Jennifer Brown Speaks. We sort of have two websites. One speaks to our organizational consulting work. And then the other speaks to my books, writing, and speaking, which I do a lot of. But we are the same entity. But there are newsletters, there are thought leadership papers you can download on neurodiversity. We have a ton of stuff on LGBTQ. We have a wonderful resource for Juneteenth, which I have to mention, is when we're recording this, this week. Happy Juneteenth. So we have an educational resource for employers about that, and what it means, and how we should commemorate it. And then I'm on all the socials, LinkedIn, we put a lot of great content out on LinkedIn, and have just a wonderful community that you can learn from, if you join us. And just be a fly on the wall, be an observer.

I think that's a wonderful place to start. Just say and recognize, "Wow, I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that. I haven't heard about that." Or, "I look at my network of people that I spend time with, and I don't know anyone from that identity." I think that's such a beautiful place to start. And in my community, anyway, you will find all kinds of exposure that you need, as really any identity. Because we all, there's not some of us who know all the things, and others that don't. I think we're all kind of in this messy middle of learning. And there's many identities I don't know as much as I should and could about, that I'm a student of.

So listening to this, I hope you all just take away from this, that we are learners, we are lots of places on our journey, and that's okay as long as we are getting comfortable, being uncomfortable, pushing ourselves along, getting that exposure. And just sitting with what we don't know, and setting goals for ourselves to learn and progress.

Ron Painter:

So can I suggest that what you are doing is, you are giving all of us, as leaders and people, you're giving us permission as part of our work to learn. That should be part of our work, is that learning?

Jennifer Brown:

Absolutely. I love that. Permission is so important, and don't be, I would also just say, Ron, don't become afraid to engage. It is a fraught time for so many reasons. But if we stop our learning, and we stop pushing into where we don't know, that it's not familiar to terrain to us, if we don't continue to push into new relationships like network, and new conversations that are more vulnerable and more honest. We really, we're putting ourselves at risk, but we're also not growing. And I think that knowing people of different identities who walk through the world differently has been one of the most incredible opportunities for me, as a human. And also has made me so much more skilled as a leader, to be able to see that world that I experienced through other lenses. And to say, "Well, so how might I make this, how might I better this environment, not just for myself, but leave a legacy that I can feel proud of?"

And I hope all of you listening, whatever age you are, at the end of the day, it is about legacy. It is about leaving things better than you found them. And better, in my definition, means more prepared for the future. That we are doing the work now that will benefit our kids when they come into this workplace, whoever they are, and however they identify, that they will feel more comfortable than our generation did. To me, that is the work, and that is the work. If I achieve that, I will be able to put my head on the pillow at night.

So I hope that appeals to some of your listeners here and yes, permission to learn, to fail, to get up and try again. To get it not exactly right, to apologize, to sort of be imperfect. Because there's not a single one of us that is perfect on any of these learning dimensions, but just don't leave the conversation, stay in the discomfort. And I would say no, that that is actually leading, is feeling that discomfort and sticking with it. Because that's what we need from leaders. That's what we need from all of you.

Ron Painter:

Jennifer Brown, it is always good to be with you, and I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down, and letting us catch up.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, thank you for the questions.

Ron Painter:

So thousands of people can listen to you and I, catching up. So I really appreciate you joining us.

Jennifer Brown:

Thanks very much.

Ron Painter:

One wild card question. So as you look at where we are, is there some other point in history we can point back to and say that... I don't even know how to call it, the fracture in our discourse, in our public discourse, or in companies right in the middle of all of this discourse. Is there another time that you can point back to and say, "You know, we had this very different change in how we work, or how we thought about work, and we came out okay. If we just stick at it"? I mean, is there any precedent to the times we're in?

Jennifer Brown:

Well, oh goodness. I mean, you can go back to civil rights. I think back to that time a lot. And what particularly inspires me, and I don't know if this is an answer to your question, but the way allies at that time kind of showed up. And the government played a role, companies were just not even involved.

Sorry about that. You're going to have to edit that out. I apologize. Companies weren't even involved in... Let me start that again.

There was no such thing as companies being involved in social change. It was just about business, and manufacturing. And so it's a very unprecedented time, where I think that the institutions of power that can affect change, I don't think organizations have ever been so powerful and so trusted. I think it's fascinating and very telling that government is not trusted, and companies are the most trusted entities by society, right now. So this is in many ways, sort of who are the arbiters of fairness in our society? And how much can those who employ tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of people, how much power lies with those institutions to really nudge the government, and nudge social change, and the political realm?And it's really fascinating to me. I think that is unprecedented.

But I want to say that in any movement for change, the thing that gives me hope is watching how those who aren't directly impacted by the change that's happening, those who aren't directly impacted. How they step up, how they say, "I'm going to put my shoulder to the wheel, even though I may not be directly impacted, I care about the overall outcome and the legacy, and how this is going to impact people I love and people in my community." That piece has always, in successful movements for change, that piece has always been there. It was there for marriage equality when the LGBTQ community won that. It wasn't necessarily because of what we did, it was allies that kind of came in and said, "We believe the time is now for this."

So I think companies as allies, and organizations, are the allies of today. That can step forward and say, "We are directly impacted by this, but we are also indirectly impacted by this. And we're going to step forward and use our might to say, 'These are our workforce. We believe in them. We want them to feel safe and secure, every single day.'" And I think companies are kind of wavering a little on this, this year. And it's really disheartening for a lot of people. A lot of workers are paying attention, and it's sort of a bellwether, right? And I don't know how it's going to go. I don't know how deep the support really goes, and I know what I want to see, and I know what I hope to be true, but I think it's a push and pull right now.

And we'll see which organizations in which leaders come out on the side of progress, in my view, and the future. Which no matter, whatever you agree or disagree, is going to be more diverse. No matter what, that change is happening. So getting on that train is probably a prudent decision, just cynically speaking, from a bottom line perspective. But getting on that train I think will also win hearts and minds. And you know what? That's the engine of our economy. So it goes beyond just the almighty dollar, I think, to loyalty, reputation, trust. All those things drive business. So we've got to get really comfortable quantifying those intangibles, and saying to ourselves, "How will we future-proof ourselves as people, as organizations?" And really the only thing we can kind of know is that change is the only constant, and that's the direction that the change is going.

Jennifer Brown:

Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website, over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together, and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Doug Foresta:

You've been listening to The Will to Change, uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion, with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time, with a new episode.