Journeys to the “G-Suite”: Out Executives Join Jennifer at the NGLCC 2022 National Conference

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This episode was originally recorded as a panel for the NGLCC 2022 National Conference. Jennifer moderates an all-star panel of out executives as they discuss their journey of fully stepping into their identity and embracing who they are. They also reveal what is it like to step forward and be the public voice of very large and esteemed institutions.

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Listen in now, or read on for the transcript of our conversation:

JENNIFER BROWN: You know, our generation, we were bonding on being Gen X backstage (laughs). And, uh, you know, we're- we had a different experience. I think the expectations are really high amongst the younger talent now. That people need to get it yesterday. We need to know all the terms. We need to do everything. And, um, the, the compassion we need to have for different generations that are still coming to understand, including folks on this panel-

ALAN SHAW: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... coming to understand our role in change is so- is so poignant and such a powerful lesson.

DOUG FORESTA: Addressing systemic inequities has become a defining challenge of our times. Leaders understanding of their role and responsibility to others and to society is being questioned. On October 4th Jennifer Brown will release the second edition of her best-selling book, How to Be an Inclusive Leader. She will share insights from over 20 years of experience working with organizations to create workplaces where everyone thrives and belongs. Her widely acclaimed inclusive leader continuum provides a framework to lead individuals through the personal learning journey they undertake to become inclusive leaders. New stories, strategies, and discussion guides equip leaders at any level to take action and step into their role in affecting change. Whether you're already a fan of the book, a reader who considers themselves an advocate for equity and inclusion, or just starting to understand how uneven the playing field is, this book is a must read and essential tool for leading into the future. Visit JenniferBrownSpeaks.com to pre-order your own copy or access special bulk rates.

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, best selling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate, committed to helping leaders foster healthier and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting for Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty.

And now, on to the episode.

Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. This conversation was originally recorded at the NGLCC Conference 2022. Jennifer hosted an all star panel of out and allied senior executives as they talk about their journey and what it was like to fully step into their identity to stop covering and full embrace who they are, and then step forward and be the voice of very large and esteemed institutions. All this and more. And now, on to the episode.

JENNIFER BROWN: So thrilled to be here, my 15th year coming to this conference (laughs). Um, I am so deeply proud of being a certified LGBT-BE and extremely excited about this conversation. There is something so special about an executive leader, however they identify, who steps forward and claims their story proudly and supports us as a community but gets vulnerable with us in our organizations. Because that's what good leadership looks like. Leadership is vulnerable, candid, honest, not afraid to ma- you know, make mistakes and admit them. And we're gonna be talking today about their journey and hearing from each of these leaders what it was like to fully step into their identity, to stop covering, to fully embrace who they are. And then to step forward and publicly be the voice of these very large and esteemed institutions. So I am so grateful these role models exist. Can we please give them a hand? (laughs) Thank you. Thank you.

So Marco, please tell us who you are, what you do, who you do it for? Where are ya? Anything else.

MARCO ZIEGLER:

Um, yeah, as I said in my introduction earlier, um, I've been, uh, over 20 years with Accenture. And I am a client guy by heart. So I'm spending all my time with clients, uh, out in the market. And I just love and get excitement being with the client and with our people. But also as a sponsor of the LGBTQ+ uh, uh, e- employee resource group in Accenture, I always bring up the conversation around inclusion and diversity with my clients.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

MARCO ZIEGLER: So that brings me, uh, uh, this brings excitement of what I- what I do. Um, and, uh, yeah, happy to be here.

JENNIFER BROWN: Well, thank you. Thank you. Brian?

BRIAN DOWNER: Hey, uh, good morning. I am really, really, really glad to be here. First time ever being able to combine my gay job with my day job.

JENNIFER BROWN: Woo hoo!

BRIAN DOWNER: It's awesome this event.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

BRIAN DOWNER: Um, I'm the Chief Procurement Officer for, uh, Truist Bank. I think half the room knows who Truist is, half doesn't. It was formed, uh, two and a half years ago, the merger of BBT SunTrust to form a really big bank. And, uh, I live in Charlotte. I'm the enterprise lead for, uh, the Truist Pride Network. I'm joined by one of the most enthusiastic, awesome teams in the industry sitting right here at that table.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

BRIAN DOWNER: Joined- joined by my husband, Jim. I'm really happy he's here. And, um, really looking forward to this morning's discussion.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you, Brian. Brooke?

BROOKE RILEY: Also good morning everyone. Uh, my name is Brooke Riley. I'm the Chief Procurement Officer for Pacific Gas & Electric Company. We are the northern and central California utility. Uh, thank you for the applause. And it's not a competition but I also happen to have an amazing team here, uh-

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

BROOKE RILEY: ... joining us too. And so I wanted to recognize that. Uh, and I'm a proud member of our Pride Network, uh, ERG at PG&E and one of our unofficial executive sponsors.

ALAN SHAW: Awesome. Good morning. Um, I'm Alan Shaw and I'm with Wells Fargo. And I- I've, um, spent 30 years in finance and tech and am just incredible, like, like happy and excited to be here with all of you today. Um, the Executive Vice President of, uh, the Chief Technology Office at Wells Fargo. And I'm just excited to have this conversation and get it started.

JENNIFER BROWN: Me too. Thanks everybody. All right. So we're gonna get a little personal to start with 'cause that- that's what we really wanna know. Um, I know for one of you this is- there's something very new about this experience. So Brian, I'm gonna start with you if it's okay. Um, I wanna hear and I know we all are curious how are- how did these executives get to this place of embodying authenticity and being comfortable with our stories? But I know that that was a recent thing in the professional realm for you-

BRIAN DOWNER: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... Brian. So would you be willing to share?

BRIAN DOWNER: Yeah. Um, at work I, I literally came out two minutes ago. It was, uh, uh, beginning of 2020, so two years. Uh, I joined this incredible bank, um, Truist. And the, uh, the, the, the camaraderie, the, the, the, the friendship, the love that they all showed made it to a place where, you know, I really couldn't, um, avoid the truth anymore. Where I came from at a different, uh, organization they didn't really drill too deep. I mean, some people knew I w- I was, uh, married and, uh, a, uh, a gay man. But, uh, most, most didn't really inquire too much.

So at, uh, Truist... Uh, and I always refuse never to lie. So at Truist they were having a dinner at the Duke Mansion. And they said bring your spouse, bring your partner. Uh, and so I went into my boss and I said, "I haven't always told you the truth because I refuse to lie." And I said, "I am married. You assume it's to a woman but his name is Jim." And, um, and he was over the top supportive, loving, caring. I had this, um, you know, fear built up in my head going into first Atlanta a- and then into, uh, Charlotte, North Carolina that, um, it wouldn't be as welcoming as it was. But I gotta tell you, all of those fears, I've heard this in similar stories here this week, none of it played out. I mean, over the top supportive. Uh, love, caring from my- from my leadership team, my direct reports, and across the organization. It was, uh, really a very wonderful experience.

And, uh, I knew that day would come where they'd say, "Would you be the Truist Pride leader?" And, uh, it's- it did. And it gave me sweaty palms to think about it. Then Justin and I met last year and he said, "Will you come and, uh, maybe talk next year and tell your journey?" And that gave me sweaty palms, but here I am doing it. So not much makes me nervous but I'm here today to tell you my story.

JENNIFER BROWN: Whoo! Uh, Brooke, tell us about your, your journey to advocacy.

BROOKE RILEY: Yeah. And so I, um, as I think about what makes a good ally and how I'm here as an ally, I remember, like I have this moment. I woke up in college and I remember I felt like I belonged. And that was one of the first moments. I- as a kid I can never figure out, like, what group I was in and, and where I should be. And, you know, it's all- like I always joke. Everything goes back to your parents. You can blame your parents for everything, right? Um, but for me, I never felt like I belonged. And there was this moment in college where I just woke up. I can literally- like I was in my bed. And I was like, "This feels good."

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

BROOKE RILEY: Um, and as I've grown in my career, like my stand is everyone on my team is- knows they belong at PG&E, in the world, wherever they might be. And I think that's really important for us to embrace and important for us to tell. And we've all had different moments of not being that. And I just think it's so important for those of us who are in positions of power, positional power or any influence, to be able to encourage other people to ha- a- and enable other people to have that same sense of belonging in a world that doesn't always encourage that.

And so- like kind of that's my story. It's, um, I've been there in different ways. And I also know how powerful it feels to wake up and say, "Ugh, I'm in a spot where people value me for me and where I feel like I have the right peer group and folks that I- that appreciate me." And so that's kind of how I've come to being an ally, um, for this community and for, I hope, a lot of others as well.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you. Thank you for what you do. Alan, um- yes.

ALAN SHAW: I love that.

JENNIFER BROWN: Um, Alan, tell us about your journey. And, um, one of the things I'm thrilled to see that NGLCC has begun to hold is different identity group gatherings. You know, back in the day, we didn't have those. And it was a missing piece to me. And I think today the statistic is 40% of certified businesses i- are led by people of color.

ALAN SHAW: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right?

ALAN SHAW: Isn't that amazing?

JENNIFER BROWN: I mean, that was- that was a dream of mine and a goal. I'm a D- DEI practitioner. And it's something I, I expect now actually in every institution. And I'm so proud of the work that's happened here. But, but I'm curious, um, speaking about i- underrepresented identities, Alan, and your journey, and you're also in technology-

ALAN SHAW: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... so your journey's really interesting on mu- multiple levels.

ALAN SHAW: Yeah. Y- you know, you bring up the- there is a community- underrepresented communities here that are- that often don't have access to capital. And-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

ALAN SHAW: ... maybe for another conversation we can talk about my experience being in private equity and venture and raising capital as a Black gay man. And being ran out of board rooms. And, and, um, when they see my name, Alan Shaw, but yet they see me in person, how that shift in their energy and the shift in their perspective, um, you know, it's, it's evident.

But, look, I am 1970s Compton, California straight outta, right here. (laughter) Right here.

JENNIFER BROWN: Whoo!

ALAN SHAW: Right here. And, you know, just statistical think- no, thinking about that, right, I shouldn't be here today. I should be incarcerated or frankly no longer walking this earth. And if it wasn't for parents that truly understood the power of you can't be what you can't see, and introducing me to people like Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell and Maya Angelou, um, I wouldn't be sitting here today. There's, there's a- there's a stanza from Still I Rise that every single morning I think about because it helps me understand my obligation, my responsibility as a Black man of color walking this earth. And it goes, "Bring in the gifts my ancestors gave. I am the hope and the dream of the slave." And so when you think about that, there were millions of people that looked like me that just were persecuted and treated poorly to give me the opportunity to stand here today at this stage. And so I will lift as I climb.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you.

ALAN SHAW: And that's a part of my story.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm. All right. Marco, what would you like to add? Execu- you're actually not technically executive sponsor but you're in the P&L side of Accenture. And yet really involved. So tell us about how you- how you constantly make the business case to the business about why this is so critical.

MARCO ZIEGLER: Uh, yeah. So, uh, quickly to my, my story. Um, I came from Germany 25 years ago. Grew up in a fairly conservative town in the middle of Germany. And I came to the US, started with Accenture. And from day one, I was authentic with myself. But the environment wasn't there yet. There were no ERGs. Um, and my first step was to start creating. I lived in Chicago. Start creating the LGBTQ, um, I think we just called it LG community-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

MARCO ZIEGLER: Um, so it was- the first step was, um, the engagement side of it. And then as that formed out and Accenture grew and we had the environment and the support, uh, I pivoted to more visibility. And that goes a little bit to your question. And I remember, and I will never forget, this is a pivotal point in my growing as an out executive. There was a panel around diversity in Chicago. And it had people of color. It had, um, you know, different languages. Um, but there wasn't LGBTQ on the panel. And I asked, "Can I be on this panel?"

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh.

MARCO ZIEGLER: And I was on the panel. And people looked at me and they didn't know I was gay. But afterwards our North America President came over and said, "Thank you." That's all he said. And many of my friendsh- uh, friends probably remember Jorge Benitez. But, um, he said two things. "We need more of you to be visible. You need to tell us, um, how we can help. And if there's ever an issue in Accenture, call me." And that was a pivotal point for me that I said, um, it- ERG is not an HR function only. We need people who work with our clients and our business for Accenture Client Services Consulting, we're always with the clients, we need to be there. We need to showcase. We need to be visible. We need to advocate. And take responsibility.

And the last step I would say is then the sponsorship. And as I matured in my career, I felt it's, it's time to give back also to the community, to be a sponsor. And for those who are looking at us f- as role models to do that. But I think the business has to lead it from a P&L side. Um, and then- and breathe it every day. It's not an HR accountability, it's all of our accountability to do that.

JENNIFER BROWN: We need to come out every day. And we, we talk about it's relentless. And we're always meeting new people or new situations. And it does get easier. But it's, it should get easier, should feel easier. I wonder if you all still in- feel the discomfort. I mean, Brian, you shared. This is the biggest audience you've ever told your story to.

BRIAN DOWNER: Yeah. It-

JENNIFER BROWN: So-

BRIAN DOWNER: ... it is. And, and while I do big deals for a living, I can speak in front of a large audience, this is not comfortable for me. But, uh, I'm, I'm glad to be pushing myself to do it.

JENNIFER BROWN: W- we're hol- we're holding him right now.

MARCO ZIEGLER: But e- even for us to, to, to, um, uh, pile on it, it's an evolution every day. So what I'm struggling with is, and we're doing it in client meetings, to say let's start the day with, um, our pronouns.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

MARCO ZIEGLER: And as an out LGBTQ leader I- this is a new thing. And clients sometimes look at us, but it works. It's just uncomfortable. So the next still will come. But we need to always- I think we have an accountability to keep pushing-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

BRIAN DOWNER: Yeah.

MARCO ZIEGLER: ... ourselves and-

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

MARCO ZIEGLER: ... each other.

JENNIFER BROWN: And we should've shared our pronouns. By the way, mine are she/her. And I do think I- even if miss that opportunity, I always raise that- I, I meant to do this. You know, I literally make my own journey and evolution visible.

MARCO ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: You know, I intended to do this. I'm sorry. Here they are. You know, and sort of that owning of what we don't know is so powerful and such an important part, I think, of allyship. Holding the- an ally in their journey as they're aspiring to be an ally is so important with grace and space. And, you know, encouraging the learning and making space to, to learn safely. I think, you know, our generation, we were bonding on being Gen X backstage. (laughs) And, uh, you know, we're- we had a different experience. I think the expectations are really high amongst younger talent now that people need to get it yesterday. We need to know all the terms. We need to do everything. And, um, the, the compassion we need to have for different generations that are still coming to understand, including folks on this panel-

ALAN SHAW: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... coming to understand our role in change is so- is so poignant and such a powerful lesson.

ALAN SHAW: You know, I, I just wanna say something to that. And then I wanna go back. You mentioned something a second ago that sparked a thought. Um, you know, my- I have a queer vegan leftist nephew.

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

ALAN SHAW: Ah, with blond dreads.

JENNIFER BROWN: Sigh.

ALAN SHAW: With blond dreads. And, um, every time we- we eat dinner once a- once a week. And for those of you who might follow me on Instagram you see- you see him all the time. And he's like, "We're gonna burn it all down. We're gonna burn it down the revolution is coming. And, uh, where are you Uncle Alan on that side?" But-

JENNIFER BROWN: (laughs)

ALAN SHAW: ... so I- so I appreciate the energy we're getting from the community. But I, I also wanna say, well, you know, Tyler, can we talk about what we do before we get to the revolution? Like let's- there's some steps along the way.

But you mentioned something about coming out and, and what it feels like. And Brian, you're here with family. Just always remember that. You- we're, we're family here. Your chosen family.

BRIAN DOWNER: Thank you.

ALAN SHAW: And, um, you know, I, I found that using that energy, you know, they're gonna look at you. People are gonna stop and, and wonder what you're going to say. Flip that. That's powerful. That's influence. I know every time I walk into a board room and I sit down and I make a point, everyone looks at me. And that's the exact moment, right, that's a moment that matters. And that's the exact moment I make sure that the words that are coming out of my mouth are meaningful, thoughtful, intentional and deliberate. So I, I think we can take that energy, right, and make sure that we're doing really good with it.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm. Beautiful advice.

ALAN SHAW: Yeah.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think the generations will learn that we can each create change from wherever we are in the ecosystems, you know? And, and our success is predicated on us understanding those systems-

ALAN SHAW: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: ... and changing them, yes, influencing them, yes. But working with the dynamics that are there. And discovering unexpected champions and allies too. I think through this endeavor we don't dismiss anyone outright. We actually partner. We actually see the full person. You know, I'm, I'm struck by my own biases. Brian, you might walk by me. And I might make assumptions about you. You know, what a gift to really understand who you are and what a gift to make space for all of that. And, and have space be made for me because I probably have a similar experience. People are like what is she? Who is she to talk about DEI? And I have to come out again and again. But also talk about the privileges that I've been afforded. Brooke?

BROOKE RILEY: Yeah. I know. I was gonna say I, I actually, Marco, res- responded kind of internally when you mentioned your boss saying we need more people like you in the room. 'Cause I think what I spend a lot of my time thinking about is we need more people who celebrate the people who are different in the room. And encourage that. And don't gloss over it.

I, I think a lot about just kind of business dynamics in general, especially at a big company. It's kind of intended to minimize diverse thinking sometimes, right? We're trying to get to quick answers. That doesn't always allow us time to pull out all the interesting diverse perspectives we have and what that might mean for a decision.

I was actually just in a meeting the other day where we made a decision that was not the right one, specifically for the LGBT community. Um, and we realized very quickly we didn't have the right people in the room-

ALAN SHAW: Mm-hmm.

BROOKE RILEY: ... when we made that decision. And we didn't have a lot of allies in the room either. So, like, we need to be really intentional about recognizing the biases we have as a business community, as our business structures, just driving to decisions so quickly. And I think one of the really important things about allyship is really enabling that and being very intentional in saying, you know, we've missed this perspective.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yeah.

BRIAN DOWNER: And w-

BROOKE RILEY: Or I'm not making room for this. Who in the room is not- how, how can I make it, uh, a better experience for people to come in with diverse perspectives? We'd get to better decisions-

BRIAN DOWNER: Yeah.

BROOKE RILEY: ... when we enable, like, the diversity that we can celebrate.

BRIAN DOWNER: I was- I was gonna add, um, around allyship, I f- you know, I found at, at, at Truist, you know, recently taking the, uh, the BRG executive role, is that they- they were looking for a road map. They were looking for how do I be an ally? How do I help? And, um, so we had organized ourselves around teammate advocacy, uh, community outreach and, uh, supplier diversity, supply chain diversity. And we just put together a plan and brought it to my leadership partners and they- the, the, the regional leads, we have 22 chapters, put together a wish list that I asked them for and force rank to see what we could do, they funded everything.

JENNIFER BROWN: Oh-

BRIAN DOWNER: They embraced the programs. They created, uh, human resource, uh, advocacy for LGBTQ for, um, for benefits and, like, surrogacy and adoption. And just the, the- what this team over here put together in those three pillars put in front of my leadership partners, 100% funded.

JENNIFER BROWN: Wow.

BRIAN DOWNER: Whereas before I think we felt a little bit limited in what we could ask for, what we could do. And I just feel like if you- if, if you ask and you- and you seek and you educate people, uh, they'll probably be there for you. And I think that's been our experience.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's beautiful. Marco?

MARCO ZIEGLER: Congrats to, to, to the funding, which is always an interesting one, right? Who's funding, uh, what. But I wanna go back to this visibility, um, and give an example and call out our CEO, Julie Sweet. And she said, "Yes we need visible IND leaders, but I need them at the table." And I think that is the next level, to be in leadership roles who are actually at the table. So Julie's very, very focused now that we, and other IND leaders, have visible roles at the table, at the decision making.

JENNIFER BROWN: That's right, that's right. Um, you know, diversity is being invited to the dance, inclusion is being asked to dance, to quote my friend Vernā Myers. And then we can extrapolate from that, you know, belonging is, is that deep feeling of psychological safety where we belong at that table.

MARCO ZIEGLER: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: Right? That what we say is going to not just be listened to but heard, which is different. Heard and heeded and taken and acted upon. And I think what I'm hearing from all of you is now is our time.

ALAN SHAW: That's right.

JENNIFER BROWN: And, um, Alan, you and I were chatting about empowerment and, and, and how you define that word. How do we as LGBT-BEs or, or any of us with all of our diverse identities, inhabit our power right now? Because we have a huge opportunity, to Brian's point, what we ask for is being granted in so many ways. They- the guidance is being asked for.

ALAN SHAW: Mm-hmm.

JENNIFER BROWN: But we've gotta be full in ourselves to know what we want. And then we've gotta show up. And then we've gotta bring that. So-

ALAN SHAW: We, we have to just walk through the door and take our seat-

JENNIFER BROWN: Take the seat-

ALAN SHAW: ... and not ask for permission.

JENNIFER BROWN: Yes.

ALAN SHAW: Not, not worry about what others think. You know, I'll, I'll tell a little quick story. I was interviewing for this job at Wells Fargo. And I knew the moment I belonged when I was interviewing with the CIO, Saul Van Beurden, and he'll be okay with me say- mentioning this about him. And he's giving me- offering me the job. And, and I said, "Saul, just before we go any further. You do know that I'm somewhat of an activist. I, I, I have a really, really big mouth. I'm very opinionated when it comes to things about the Black community and LGBT community. That, that I won't have any issues, you know, speaking out against things that don't make sense, that are not inclusive."

And he said, "You know what, Alan? That's exactly why I want you here. I want you to bring all your differences to the table. And I want that to be celebrated for all of our employees and our customers worldwide." And that was the moment I thought, okay, I can do this. I belong here. So, um, that's what belonging's all about. It's, it's not being- not, not waiting for someone to empower you. Empower yourself.

JENNIFER BROWN: Here here. Whew. We have like a couple minutes left. Um, advice for our business owners here to do work with these amazing companies, how we need to show up, um, how we frame our work, our value proposition. Is there anything you'd say to us to, um, that really will make the difference in our ability to work with you, to show up well, to help you innovate your products and services? Because that's what we do best. If we're at that table and we're heard and we feel confident, we have so much to bring. But there's such a long journey between where we sit and working with all of you.

MARCO ZIEGLER: Yeah. So a big passion of mine- so personally I'm a- an endurance guy. I, I love marathons and I do hot yoga. So I love that endurance. Um, it gives me the motivation, the balance as well. The point I wanna make, it takes time. It's, it's a- it's a journey. So I look at this, from the audience what I have learned this is an unbelievable group of, we just need to be together, work it, continues to work. It doesn't happen overnight. So my advice for, um, you know, for the, uh, for the small/medium businesses here, when you come to the Accentures, the Wells Fargos, the Truists, the PG&Es, do your homework, right? Figure out what our priorities are. And then engage. And then it happens magically. I mean, we work together with many, many of you. And for us, uh, large organizations, also spend time, right? Spend time with the community and-

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm-hmm.

MARCO ZIEGLER: ... and put money in where the mouth is and, and all of that.

JENNIFER BROWN: Thank you for saying that.

BRIAN DOWNER: Yeah, I'm gonna- I, I, I agree with everything he said. I would just say that, um, you know, e- engaging with small business diverse suppliers is not only the right thing to do but it's good business. I find the quality, the, uh, um, uh, the, uh, the outcomes, it's just- i- it's just much better. And there- it's, it's more aggressive, harder working. It's just, um, um, my, my preference will always be to find the small suppliers, the ones that we can e- we, we can engage with. So, you know, to Marco's advice, I mean, we- we've got to, um, be aware of you. We need to know that, uh, your goods and services and, and, and where we can get you into the RFP events, uh, because it'll always, I think for most CPOs, will be a priority for us to engage with the, the, the kind of businesses that are represented here. So, uh, you know, continue to make yourself known to us.

JENNIFER BROWN: Perfect.

BROOKE RILEY: And I, I can really add on to that. Um, we- fi- find your allies in the company. We have a whole supplier diversity team, SupplierDiversityTeam, uh, @PGE.com if you wanna get us. Uh, and we sincerely believe that supplier diversity is the right thing to do. Right? So, like, that's an easy in. Come contact us. Uh, we really need more LGBTQ businesses to register in California to help us meet our own supplier diversity goals. So that's my other ask here. Please register. Um, register. Help us meet these goals. We really want to do the right thing and we really want to be allies to this community from a supplier diversity perspective.

JENNIFER BROWN: Mm.

ALAN SHAW: Two things. Number one, be- be brilliant by innovating with people. Right? Innovation is not just about technology or process. It's about the people you bring to the table. So when you bring that sales team, you bring that, that sales engineering team, make sure that those people are brilliantly diverse and innovative in their thinking. That's one.

And then two, never take no for an answer.

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JENNIFER BROWN: Hi, this is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at JenniferBrownSpeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work. And discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

DOUG FORESTA: You've been listening to The Wealth of Change, uncovering true stories of diversity and inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit JenniferBrownSpeaks.com. Thank you for listening and we'll be back next time with a new episode.