Brand Accountability in 2023: Budweiser, Disney, and the Social Engagement Landscape with Fabrice Houdart

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Fabrice Houdart:

Going back to Disney, but there is a lesson there, which is a decision like this should not be taken by two people that have very little knowledge of the community, that have very little knowledge of what is at stake, right? There were hundreds or maybe thousands of employees at Disney that have human rights responsibilities, social and corporate responsibility jobs, that work in legal, communication, and the employee resource group, that should have been involved in its decision making, and they were. The reality is that if this Disney had taken a position early on behind closed doors, and had used their leverage before the bill made it to the Senate floor, we would certainly not have had that public controversy.

Doug Foresta:

The Will to Change is hosted by Jennifer Brown. Jennifer is an award-winning entrepreneur, dynamic speaker, bestselling author and leadership expert on how organizations must evolve their cultures towards a new, more inclusive workplace reality. She's a passionate inclusion and equity advocate committed to helping leaders foster healthier, and therefore more productive workplaces, ultimately driving innovation and business results. Informed by nearly two decades of consulting to Fortune 500 companies, she and her team advise top companies on building cultures of belonging in times of great upheaval and uncertainty.

And now on to the episode. Hello and welcome back to The Will to Change. This is Doug Foresta. Today's episode features the conversation with Fabrice Houdart, as he discusses his diversity story and shares how companies can successfully navigate the DEI and social responsibility landscape. Fabrice talks about the importance of professionalism and corporate advocacy, and what organizations can do to support LGBTQ+ inclusion in the wake of the anti-woke backlash. He also talks about what Gen Z expects from corporate brands and the impact of those expectations on corporate DEI efforts. All this and more, and now, on to the conversation.

Jennifer Brown:

Fabrice, welcome to The Will to Change.

Fabrice Houdart:

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a treat and to start Pride with you.

Jennifer Brown:

I know.

Fabrice Houdart:

I couldn't dream of a better way to start Pride.

Jennifer Brown:

So appropriate. You are in Paris, currently? You're doing this-

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah. I am in my own country, so for warmth, my accent is legitimate. I'm in Paris this week.

Jennifer Brown:

And Fabrice's last name, for everybody, is Houdart, but we were just having an entertaining conversation about helping people pronounce your last name, and adding the H and the D, Houdart, which is certainly less beautiful to my ears; however, it helps us spell it right.

Fabrice Houdart:

I gave an interview to the BBC on Uganda a few days ago. I was very proud, and then they introduced me, and they say Fabrice Houdart, and I'm like, "That's not my name. That's not my name."

Jennifer Brown:

Even I know. There is no [inaudible 00:03:06] on that last E. My grade school French is coming back to me. The only time it comes back to me, really. Welcome to this conversation and my audience for the Will to Change. You've never been on the show before, but it has been a long time coming, because you have a wonderful newsletter, by the way, everybody, and I want to direct people to that later, but I always read it. It's a go-to resource to me, not just to know what's going on around the world because your lens is so global, and your experience and your life, but your interpretation of current events is invaluable to me, because you've been in this forever.

Fabrice Houdart:

That's very nice of you. I have to tell you, it really touches me, because that's what I prefer doing. Every week, the time I write, it is like my favorite time of the week.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, that's so lovely. So it's not hard for you to do that.

Fabrice Houdart:

But I enjoy it, and maybe I'm slightly egocentric. Not just slightly, but I love to get to give my opinion on what happened. I worked at the World Bank in the UN, and I was never allowed to give my opinion.

Jennifer Brown:

Right, exactly.

Fabrice Houdart:

It seems, "Oh, wow."

Jennifer Brown:

"Wow. This is what it feels like."

Fabrice Houdart:

So it's great. Yeah.

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, absolutely. So we'll tell people later on how to get on your newsletter. It's one of the many things you do. The other thing is, and we'll also talk about this, is the state of board diversity for LGBTQ+ people, which I personally appreciate that you're focused on that. It's a topic I want to learn more about. It's, obviously, something that I think the whole community really wants to be considered for opportunities.

And yet I know that there have been systemic barriers historically, just like there are for other kinds of representation, and demographic representation that we've been seeking for a long time. It's probably similar but somewhat different too and unique, the particular challenges that we have, getting on public boards, so we'll get to that. Yes. But first let me ask you about your personal journey. What would you tell us about your career path, your family, if you'd like to share? Who are you? Who are you, and tell us a little about, I feel like the work we share goes way, way back for you, but maybe there was a time that you weren't out and proud, and I would love to hear about that evolution as well.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, and that's interesting that you say that, because I always felt that my sexual orientation had a disproportionate impact on who I am and what I do, right? You know what I mean? For a lot of people, their sexuality doesn't really [inaudible 00:05:35] their life. For me, it was a determinant of my life, and I grew up in France. I was completely closeted. I'm 45, so there was not a lot of representation on LGBTQ+ issues when I grew up. And believe me, I always knew I was gay, because when I would stumble upon a clothing catalog, I would go directly to the male underwear section.

So there was no doubt, from the beginning, that I was gay, but I did one last attempt at heterosexuality. It wasn't a huge success. In fact, my ex married my brother eventually. So I left to the United States to come out, and I love to say that I was so good at it, that I decided to stay. Really, I felt I couldn't come out in France, and so I went to the US. What is really interesting is that I had read Bret Easton Ellis. He wrote American Psycho Less than Zero, Glamorama. I had already translated in French, because I barely spoke English, but I had noticed that LGBT character or gay characters, really, were depicted in a somewhat positive manner.

They were having sex on campus. They were having a real life, and I was like, "You know what? I need to make my way in that country." So I told my dad, I said, "Look, I need to learn English. I'm going to go to America," so I went to American University. Then, I didn't have a visa after school, and I was closeted. I was coming out, and so I didn't have a lot of self-confidence, and I couldn't find a job. I ended up working at the World Bank, because it was down the street. When I got this tiny job, and then I started working on the Democratic Republic of Congo, because the war had ended and they needed someone who spoke French. Eventually I had a career, and I stayed there for 14 years.

But I became more and more interested in the plight of LGBTQ+ people abroad, so when I was there, I received a grant from the Nordics to work on development outcomes of LGBTQ+ people. Eventually I was a senior country officer for Tunisia and Libya at the end, but really, what interested me was the LGBT development, maybe because 50% of my time, but it was not my job, right? And so it became unsustainable, and so I left in 2016 to go. I moved to New York with my little boys to go work for the high commissioner on human rights. When I was there, I became very interested in the private sector. I developed LGBTQ+ corporate standards of conduct, which are part of the human rights framework now. That's pretty much how we ended up here in New York City, doing LGBTQ+ work.

Jennifer Brown:

What a blessing, what a blessing. We do get these signals, right? That we're not fully working in the area that we're truly passionate about, and I just love these stories of that. Mine is similar. I was getting closer and closer, and finally really feeling that we're in a sweet spot. I would say, looking at you from where I sit, definitely a sweet spot of alignment in the right place, but also with that global experience you have, which is so pressing. When you talk about the plight around the world, it's just so striking the differences in our own safety, the way that we're protected or not, the awareness that we need to give, and how we need to extend our advocacy to where it's needed around the world, particularly if we are in a place of comfort and safety ourselves.

Then, that's also happening in our own backyard in our own country too, so there's a lot to do, but you've really contributed. I wanted to highlight, you actually have an op-ed in the Washington Post this week on the plight of people in Uganda, and I want to hear a little bit more about, just take that as an example. Tell us. Raise our awareness about the state of what's happening in some of these countries. I think this is really important, especially this month, but always, for us to pause and recognize the system that we benefit from here, and yes, the fights we're fighting, but at the same time there are different fights all over the world. So what is the situation there? What is the status? What makes you hopeful, and what is the work that we, especially in the West, need to do to be thinking about advocacy?

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah. If we could maybe talk briefly about Uganda first, the law in Uganda is completely out there, right? It's not your run-of-the-mill, homophobic criminalization of homosexuality bill. It makes the situation untenable for LGBTQ+ Ugandans. And so the reason I've been expressing myself on the topic, I did that interview with BBC, and then I did that oped in the Washington Post, is because I was at the World Bank when Musevini signed the anti-homosexuality bill in 2014. There was a first version of that bill that passed. He signed it.

There was a huge pushback, actually including from the World Bank, and then the court, some local courts, basically, invalidated the law, because there had not been a quorum in the parliament when it was approved, so it was invalidated on a technicality. But anyway, the World Bank yesterday published a statement, and the statement is extremely weak. It's, "We're very sorry this is happening," and so my point in my oped is, "No, no, no. This is not, 'We are very sorry.' It's that it makes it impossible for Uganda to be on a journey for economic development, because you cannot under international rules, and under the own policy of the World Bank, you cannot bar an entire segment of your population not from benefiting of development efforts, right?"

So what I'm saying to the bank is, "Look, and in fact, civil society in Uganda has requested that you have to suspend your loans and review your entire portfolio to see if you can operate without discriminating against LGBT people, because it's [inaudible 00:12:08], right?" And international support cannot say, "Oh. This is only for that part of the population, but that part of the population won't benefit from it because they love people that have the same sex," right? That doesn't work, and so it's a little bit reflecting of what we did in 2014, and saying, "Look, this situation is even worse now. You have to take a very strong stance on this."

Jennifer Brown:

What can we learn about these stances of institutions all around the world, including this country, how powerful they are, when they are weak, when they need to be stronger? Are there lessons there that we need to take and apply to what's happening here, or is it sort of an anomaly of parts of the world in certain countries, where this is extremely harmful and a unique situation? I guess, I wonder what we need to learn from this, and also what are institutions doing to throw their weight around to change this, if any?

Fabrice Houdart:

No, and I love this, because I think we, the bank, not we, right? The bank, Jim Kim, who was president of the bank at the time, made a mistake, which is suspended lending without having consulted civil society, and civil society said, "Look, there was room for diplomacy. Now you're basically saying, because of the gays, there's not going to be money for the health system, and that's not a very good message." So I think the lesson there is that you always have to ask for guidance from the people that are affected, right? As an example, in Florida, it's very tempting to call for a boycott of Florida, right? But then what you will hear is, "Look, a lot of the people that work in those conference centers or work for those companies happen to be LGBTQ," which is true, but the problem is that then no reaction is good, right?

Because you have the same situation when we boycotted Equinox, because Equinox had done a fundraiser for Trump, and Trump was clearly having a negative impact on Trump's people in our community. A lot of the people that work at Equinox, and a lot of the people that go to Equinox, are LGBT. So when do you decide that you should take a stance? My point of view is, first of all, consult the community, right? Does the community have a strong opinion? But my other point of view is, is it the right opportunity to take a stand? And in the case of Uganda, we have to be very careful, because there is a risk of contagion to the entire region. There has been a regression in societal attitudes towards LGBT people. We are at a high risk of neighboring countries saying, "Oh, yeah. That sounds like a great law. I'm going to copy it," and so we should send a very strong signal.

I actually left the [inaudible 00:15:09] when it happened in 2010, and it was very difficult for me, for many reasons. One of them was at a daycare. I was at Columbus Circle in New York, and that daycare, and my kids were tiny, and so I could drop the kids at daycare and go work out. But I left, and the reason is because I said, "Look, that's one opportunity we have to send a signal to everybody in the private sector, that you cannot play both sides." You cannot be like, "I'm marketing to you. I love you guys. This is pride. We're all for you, and by the way, I'm giving money to your enemies, right?" It doesn't work. We also have to be a bit opportunistic in, is this the right moment? Is this the right battle? Is it the right cause? For [inaudible 00:15:55], I have no problem in telling you this is the right cause, and I have to confess to you, I was in Florida for a conference a few weeks ago.

Jennifer Brown:

I know.

Fabrice Houdart:

Don't tell anybody. Don't tell anybody.

Jennifer Brown:

I know, I know. I'm still going for speaking engagements, and then there's the big Out & Equal, which a lot of us go to, and is normally a huge celebration of us and really energizing. I think we all need that shot in the arm, and also to come together and teach each other about best practices, especially in the corporate world. But in Disney hosting it this year, as it has in the past, it is bringing up some questions of, where do we go? Some of us are safer in certain environments because of how we identify as well. We have the ability to go somewhere and not perhaps feel as targeted, so I think there are privilege dynamics that occur.

To me. There's also the question of Disney, which made a misstep in the Don't Say Gay conversation with DeSantis, and then kind of leadership changed, and the company has come back strong. But you and I were chatting before this, and you told me that you actually resigned a position that you had with them, because in that first decision they made to not say anything, it destroyed so much trust, and you were making an argument to me. I know exactly what you mean, that an apology is okay. Coming back stronger, great, but the fact that the mistake was made gave oxygen to something that continues to be so dangerous for us. Is that an accurate characterization of what happened, and how should we look at corporate missteps like that, which are so hurtful?

Especially, when that happened, I know because I've worked with Disney as a consultant for years and years, and I know, deeply, the level of commitment that I've seen over many years too. So I was really torn about it. I didn't know where I stood, and I didn't know what I should say, and then I'm just relieved, in a way, that they reversed, came back stronger, and are really holding the line beautifully. But I don't know what to do with the mistake. I don't know what to do with that, the fact that that even happened, and then to really, really realize the fallout from that, which is not something that brands can take back in a case like this.

Fabrice Houdart:

Look, I love everything about what you say. The reality is that I was on a small nonprofit board of an organization called The Magical Weekend, which organized Gay Disney, and I resigned because it would not take a very strong stance towards Disney, but also towards the gay bill. There was something fascinating actually about Don't Say Gay, which is that a lot of gay men said to me that this was a reasonable piece of legislation.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, really?

Fabrice Houdart:

Which was really mind-blowing. A lot of them were people that supported, that were more on the Bruce LeVine side of saying, and their view is, "Yeah, I don't want a teacher to teach my kids about homosexuality," which as a father of two, I can tell you the best thing that can happen to children is to know very early on that there is nothing wrong about having a different sexual orientation or non-conforming gender identity. In fact, this is the only way we don't get damaged. I think what happened to LGBTQ+ people in childhood is extremely damaging, because of the fact that this is a taboo. We are not told that this is fine. We have to lie to our parents. We have to lie to our teachers. We have to lie to our priest.

Then, for the rest of our life, we play catch up with that experience of not being able to trust the people who should trust them the most. I love to say that this is not insignificant. What is done to LGBTQ+ people in childhood constitutes mass child abuse. The fact that, tonight, hundreds of millions of children are going to go to bed with this horrendous secret, not being able to share it with anybody, that's heartbreaking. Particularly as a father, it breaks my heart. For a lot of gay men, to be frank, white gay men, have made a place for themselves under the sun, and they minimize what happened to them. They say, "Oh. I was bullied in high school. It's good for the character, but I'm fine now."

The reality is that, for all the white gay men we know that made it to the top of business, the top of politics, or the top of academia, there is an incredible number of men, women, non-binary people, and trans people that have killed themselves or that have died of a premature death; liver failure, car accident, so many deaths that are not countered, and even more misery that is not counted, so Don't Say Gay is not an innocent bill. It sends us back to being groomers, which is the worst thing you can be accused of in America, which is to pervert children and sexualize them, which of course, gay people are never doing, nor are intending to do, but it was an extremely damaging piece of legislation.

So now, going back to Disney, the onus is on Bob Chapek and Geoff Morrell, but there is a lesson learned, which is that a decision like this should not be taken by two people that have very little knowledge of the community, that have very little knowledge of what is at stake, right? There were hundreds or maybe thousands of employees, Disney, that have human rights responsibility, social corporate responsibility jobs, that work in legal, communication, and the employee resource group, that should have been involved in the decision making and the world. The reality is that if Disney had taken a position early on behind closed doors, and had used their leverage before the bill made it to the Senate floor, we might not have Don't Say Gay.

We would certainly not have had that public controversy, so they made a huge mistake that I think is not repairable, because now DeSantis has gotten an opportunity to say, "Look, I'm standing up." Not only did he get Don't Say Gay, but now he gives the opportunity to stand up to corporate wokeness, and so that was very damaging to us. I wrote a letter before it went to the Senate floor that was co-signed by a lot of activists, Dustin Lance Black, Urvashi Vaid. I wrote, to Disney, a letter from activists, saying, "Look, you really have to take a position on this. This is not a benign piece of legislation," and to this day, I haven't gotten a response from Disney.

Jennifer Brown:

Interesting. Imagine the betrayal internally for all those employees, because I'm so connected to them. To go through that, and have your trust be in the company you work for, and have supported so much on its own journey, because we know affinity groups literally support brands to be better. That's what they exist to do. Also, to provide community and all those other things, but wow, that's also the irreparable piece, I'm sure, and thank you for describing it in such detail. I hadn't even known that there was a moment in a window when different choices might have spared us from what we're going through now.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, for sure. I love what you say, because I know we're going to speak probably a little bit about it, but if you look at Budweiser, if you look at Target, mistakes were made, and to me, the biggest lesson to corporation is look, there's no turning back. You are going to find yourself having to take a stance on social issue. You are going to have to try to market to the LGBT community, a growing number of Americans identifying as LGBTQ+, right? But you cannot wing it, you know what I mean? You cannot be Bob Chapek and Geoff Morrell that are like, "I know how the world is. We're going to do this." You have people that know the community. You have internal resources. You should take it seriously. It's not philanthropy. It's part of business in 2023.

Jennifer Brown:

Let's talk about Target just for a minute. The merchandise we all know and love, I think a lot of us look forward to it. Sometimes the merchandise is horrible, but it's still fun. All my cats are playing with Pride mice right now. We love it as a community. It feels we're a priority for brands. I don't recall, I don't think we've seen this level of backlash that has manifested in the form that it's manifesting in, violence against the teams at Target, the staff. I don't know quite what to make of it, and what have we moved into a new realm, in the quantum realm?

I didn't foresee that it would be unsafe to sell the merchandise. For brands that have always liked Target have been, I think, pretty good, and you correct me if I'm wrong, and I know there were early, early, early days when they weren't actually. I remember 20 years ago, there was an executive that was giving privately to anti-LGBTQ causes, and my friend at the time was leading diversity at Target, and he was, in the 20 years ago version of being doxxed, he was doxxed, and he's a gay man, but he was someone that the HRC and communities, the word got out, and he was the target of the [inaudible 00:25:43] of the community.

Back then, because we discovered that an executive was doing something differently privately and personally, that didn't align with the stated values of the brand, so it's really interesting. I just flashed back to that, and I remember being shocked at that time, that that violence was being threatened by our own community, which is another, we can get into, tactics, if you'd like too. How do we make ourselves heard? But anyway, be that as it may, how do you parse this new level, new low, that we seem to have reached for brands, and literally, who's the collateral damage in a situation like this?

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah. I love this question because I am a very pessimistic, French man, but I'm going to tell you, you're going to find me very optimistic in this. I don't think there is an attack on pride. I think that any company that is positioning themselves on Pride is going to make a lot of money. That is great marketing.

Jennifer Brown:

That's a fact. That's a fact.

Fabrice Houdart:

Most of them are not going to get any backlash. What happened is that the media and Rupert Murdoch, right? Have taken three separate events that are not related, right? Disney, internal problem. Budweiser, lack of authenticity, weird campaign, target, and this isolated incident, and it has bundled them together to say, "This is the end of Pride. This is the end of corporate for Pride," but that's not the case at all. Now, I'll tell you, it's not the first time that they do that. This week-

Jennifer Brown:

Right. I know. It's always been the case.

Fabrice Houdart:

This week, I'm in Paris, and every single headline is saying that artificial intelligence is going to lead to mass instinction of human being, but scientists don't think that's the case at all. They think it's actually an amazing opportunity for human beings and that it probably is a transition, but it's like every innovation; it might actually, if well managed, it might be amazing for humankind, but what sells? What sells Murdoch's papers is mass instinction and a culture war. The fact that things are good doesn't sell, right? I don't believe there is an attack on Pride. Indeed, some brands might be afraid because of those headlines, but it's what I would call high return, low risk.

Jennifer Brown:

Sure.

Fabrice Houdart:

You are going to win more customers and you are going to risk losing, and in the long term, 20% of Gen Z American identify as LGBTQ. I know it sounds like a crazy statistic, but it's a real statistic. A lot of them don't identify as gay, lesbian, and trans. They identify as bisexual and non-binary, but they still identify as LGBTQ+. That's the future of America, and they have a tremendous number of allies, so if you are a consumer facing brand, that's a no-brainer. You have to be present at Pride. Any way, Pride is a very positive event and message. Of course, you want to be associated with it.

So if you are a brand, you should certainly not have a Pride collection in a store in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. That's not a good idea, but there is zero risk or very little risk in being present in Pride 2023, and any company that would start toning down their engagement because of the target Budweiser and Disney thing would do a poor calculation. The last thing that I will tell you is that I have this joke that I've been repeating, which is true, is that if you want to really know what is the problem with the Budweiser campaign, it's authenticity. You can see it, because you can Google senior management team of Anheuser-Busch in the United States, and you will see on the page, 15 people in the management team, 14 men, all white, one woman. Guess what, Jennifer? Guess what the woman is in charge of?

Jennifer Brown:

Oh, don't even tell me. Probably what I do.

Fabrice Houdart:

She's in charge of human resources.

Jennifer Brown:

HR.

Fabrice Houdart:

There's one woman in charge of HR. That's what Anheuser-Busch is. Don't go do a campaign on gender diversity if you have a woman in your management team. So Budweiser, it's not really our friend. They don't really get it, and of course, they [inaudible 00:30:18].

Jennifer Brown:

Can I ask the anti-trans bills, particularly hundreds of them making their way through, who are the courageous companies right now who are tackling this, who are getting involved, who are jumping into the arena? What is the extent of the support of the business community vis-a-vis that question? And I know it's state by state, and it brings an interesting challenge for companies that do business in multiple states too. But are there some shining examples of commitment that goes more than skin deep to the community that are happening right now on these issues?

Fabrice Houdart:

I love what you say, because there is something that comes back to what we discussed about Uganda, is that is it the right battle, is it the right cause? And to me, posturing on trans bills can be slightly useless, because we don't have the votes. That's our real problem in America. We don't have the votes at the local level, so you can be a company and call people in Congress and try to get the governor to change his mind. There are many cases where it's not going to have an impact. There are some cases where it could have an impact. If you're a very big employer, and there is some people that are moderate among conservatives in that specific state, then you should do it.

But there are other places where, frankly, we are losing the votes, so then what company can do in most contexts, that is really valuable, is giving visibility to trans people in their advertising and in their communication, because I think the biggest issue we have in America is that only a third of American know a trans person or have met a trans person. When you have not met a trans person, you might have a gigantic fear that is completely irrational. What I love to talk about, I'm a gay father, and there are a lot of people that have irrational fears about gay men parenting. What I always say is the banality of my experience, as a father, is what is reassuring, right?

My sons are sick. I'm terrified. I stay up all night with them. You know what I mean? There's nothing crazy about gay parenting. There's nothing crazy in the trans experience. Trans people have the exact same aspiration than all other human beings, which is dignity and getting some economic opportunities, right? There is something very common in our human experience, but when you don't know people, you develop this irrational fear that they might be an enemy to family tradition, the future of America. And so I think the best thing that we can do is showcase trans people in the media, in movies, in advertising, in a way that familiarize America with the trans experience.

Jennifer Brown:

Right. That's how we won gay marriage, is everybody knew somebody in the community.

Fabrice Houdart:

That's true.

Jennifer Brown:

That was really pushed over the line in that case, so we're at another threshold like that. Let me switch directions a bit because I really want to learn about the state of leadership diversity, so you just referenced the leadership of Anheuser-Busch and how problematic it is. It's interesting. You're arguing that they should, from the other angle, to say, "Okay, so that was performative what you did, because your numbers and your representation don't match the message that you're sending out into the world, and you're basically rainbow washing." We call it pinkwashing. There's a lot of words for it. They're greenwashing too, right? In that vein.

But the fact is, and every keynote I do, I show these pictures of what boardrooms look like and what leadership suites look like. They don't look like me. Certainly, they don't look like the world that these brands are recruiting from, hiring from, wanting to sell to and to market to. It's a really persistent problem. Not just C-suite, but board level, which is where you focus in your organization that you founded in June of 2022, the association of LGBTQ corporate directors. So I know you're going after this, and you're so strategic, and I want to know; this is going to make the big difference. Otherwise, you would not be working in it.

It's largely invisible. It's interesting. Boards especially, I think, are relatively unknown to the common person. It's very quiet, to me. It's this niche conversation. To lesser extent, executive teams, I think, are less known. I think it usually takes somebody in the community pointing out that, "Okay, so this brand is saying one thing, and they're not really doing their work over here, but it's not known commonly," and yet some of the most important work we do, and I know you are focusing there because it matters. It has a massive ripple effect. It's extremely significant on a whole host of aspects. So if you could, can you scope out a quick historical view of board diversity for public companies?

And when we think of it, perhaps we only think of gender diversity. Perhaps we only think of ethnic diversity, and perhaps that's where the laws have been, the expectations, or the quotas in the case of some countries around the world, not the US, but how? So where have we seen progress around the world on these kinds of those dimensions and representation? Then, where's the US in that context? And then give us a sense of, so we're adding LGBTQ+. It deserves to be at the table. We deserve to be at the table, but there's certain nuances, I think, that are unique to that battle too, which is where you focus. So if you could take us back a bit, give us the global view, and then tell us where our community stands.

Fabrice Houdart:

And when I was listening to you, if it's discrete, it probably matters, right? I didn't know anything about boards until I left the World Bank of the United Nation. I knew it existed, but I didn't really understand the fact that every company, private or public, tend to have a board, and that board is pretty much organized in the same way, and that they are the boss of the CEO, right? And then I happened to get a job in 2020, in which I was in charge of doing what I did before, which was trying to get the private sector to weigh on public policy issues, like marriage equality in Japan, but then under my purview, I had this small board diversity advocacy campaign under my purview. I didn't pay any attention to it. In fact, I tend to have a tendency to not like to learn new things. So I just had to learn Canva under duress.

Jennifer Brown:

Ouch.

Fabrice Houdart:

But then Goldman Sachs said, "No IPO without diverse board member, including on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity."

Jennifer Brown:

That's huge.

Fabrice Houdart:

That was huge.

Jennifer Brown:

Huge.

Fabrice Houdart:

And then, a few months later, California passed a law, which since then has been repealed, called AB 979, that mandated disclosure of board diversity, including LGBT, but also mandated to have diverse board member, including LGBTQ. Very interestingly, I was an expert witness on that case against AB 979. We lost. What was very interesting is that the plaintiff, Jay Bloom, is the exact same plaintiff in the affirmative action case at the Supreme Court, and of course, he's very conservative. It's a conservative think tank, right? What he says is that you believe in meritocracy, right? That if you're a woman, just work hard, and you'll become a CEO. We know that's not the case, right? We know that's not the case.

In fact, women work three times as hard than men, right? We know that's not the case, but that's what he argues. Anyway, [inaudible 00:38:33] are illegal in the United States, so it was decided to be unconstitutional. But after that, NASDAQ, maybe two years ago, passed a rule that only became effective this last month or a few months ago. No, last year in August, but that translated into proxies this season right now. The rule was that if you're NASDAQ listed, you have to disclose whether you have diverse board member including LGBT board member. For the first time. We have a big data set of who is out in the boardroom, and might have kept a manual data set of who is out in the Fortune 500 boardroom, and it's 0.7% of seats.

So people all the time say, "Maybe there are a lot of closeted people you don't know about." That's not the case, because among the 0.7%, you have people that have been very discreet about their sexual orientation, that we know are gay. A lot of them were very discreet, as we have four CEOs that are out, Tim Cook being a very good example, was in the closet until very recently. So what I responded at the time is that we know who has some sex attraction or at least live with someone of the same sex or self-identifying private as LGBTQ. That's not really a mystery in 2023 at that level, so I'm pretty sure that we actually have 0.8% of gay LGBTQ+ people as CEO and 0.7% in the boardroom. So now it brings me to the association.

I quickly realized that in the United States, women, Hispanics, African-Americans, Asian-Americans have adopted a strategy to increase their representation in the boardroom, is that rather than say, "We want board seats for women," they have a nonprofit like the one I created that say, "Look, I have this exceptional person or person that feature requirement CFO, that had an experience in the pharmaceutical industry that brought a drug to market, and by the way, they happen to be LGBT." It bridges some of the issue we have. I published a piece recently on the Harvard Law Governance Forum with Richard [inaudible 00:40:59], and in the piece we explained that we did a bit of a survey.

What we see is that there are a few elements at play, right? One element is that there is a generation gap. All the LGBT people that did not make it to the top of business, but also a lot of gay men that died of HIV, that should be in the boardroom today that are not there, that's the generation gap. There is a networking gap. To really carry catch of the trade, we vacation in Provincetown, not in Marta's Vineyard. And so we are a little bit outside of the places where board seats, where people are being selected for board service. Then, I would say that the last aspect is the fact that there is still some level of prejudice against LGBT people.

This idea that, because we violated social norm, we cannot be trusted. And even though nobody's going to say, "I don't want a lesbian in my board," they're going to say, "Oh. I don't know if she's a fit. Who does she know?" And what it really means is, "I don't know if that person is not going to be disruptive because lesbians are [inaudible 00:42:06] and not trustworthy human beings," and that aspect is probably harder to overcome. The way we overcome it is to say, "No, no, no. Look, the names we're sending you are people we know very well. We know Jennifer Brown. We can vet that she's going to be a great addition to your board."

Jennifer Brown:

Generation gap, networking gap, and prejudice. I'm just thinking about those things and which ones are the easiest and the hardest, to your point. I'm curious, in Europe there's been a very different experience because of quotas, because of requirements. Are you a fan of that strategy? Do you believe that it goes beyond? Certainly, what gets measured gets done, but does it go beyond that to sustainable change? Because what gets measured gets done can also backfire, in terms of people's inclusion in systems, like true inclusion over time, right? You can require something, but I always am like, "But what does that say about the shifts in the cultures around that person, that enables their full voice to be heard, for example?"

Fabrice Houdart:

Look, those are great arguments, and a lot of my candidates say, "Look, I don't want to be a token in the boardroom."

And I say, "Please be a token."

Jennifer Brown:

Be a token.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, completely. And look, you know what? People love LGBT board members, and you know why? Because anybody that is LGBT that made it to the top of business works three times as hard than their heterosexual, cisgender counterpart, and they had to navigate an extremely difficult environment. So I can tell you that at least they're going to read the board package from cover to back. You know what I mean? It is a reality. People that today have board seats, very famous people, Diane Walker, [inaudible 00:43:56] is on the board. He is on the board of PepsiCo, Ralph Lauren Block. People love him. His contribution is beloved. Dwight McBride was the board of ConEd, the president of the new school. I was seated next to the president of ConEd, and he was telling me how good Dwight is, right?

[inaudible 00:44:12], board member, she was on Frontier Airline that merged with JetBlue. She's on several more. Lesbian, Latina. People love her. And the reason why they love her is because their contribution to the board are substantial. They are a very good element of the board, so I'm saying be a token. Next thing they will see you as much more than a token, right? Indeed, you're completely right. In France, we had a completely different attitude, right? In 2010, the government realized that nobody was going to put women on board, right? That it would take 100 years to get even close to parity, so the government said, "Gradually, you have to be at 40% board," and today we have 44% women on board. It has been 10 years. It's a law that is called Copé-Zimmerman. I think it has been 11 years, actually.

People love it. Members acknowledge that women have brought amazing contribution to the boardroom. There's no more noise about women being unneeded and unqualified, and I don't want to sound too much like a socialist, but the meritocracy doesn't exist. The meritocracy doesn't exist. That's an American illusion. And I will tell you, I am extremely concerned about affirmative action being repealed, because it's going to deplete diversity in academia and among students, because money plays a gigantic role, and we are going to find ourselves back at square one. I love the United States. I have to play by the rules. The rules are no quotas on board representation, but I would love a quota. Now, what I'm trying to push is a [inaudible 00:45:52]. I would like Korn Ferry, [inaudible 00:45:56], Egon Zehnder to all make a public commitment that they're always going to put one LGBTQ+ person in the slate of candidates that for the client, but it's going to be a long journey.

Jennifer Brown:

Why are we so allergic in this country? Is it the meritocracy, that myth? Why are we so allergic to doing these kinds of things that we know would get results, or maybe they wouldn't in this country? I don't know, but there's proof points all around the world that it works.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, and I think you're right. There is a very good notion that if you pull yourself by your bootstrap, everything is possible for everybody, whether you're gay. Now, look at my [inaudible 00:46:37] that actually knows Latinos Corporate Director of association, 40% of California is Latino. 4% of board member in Californias are Latino. It's pretty good sign that the meritocracy is not really functioning, right? But look, we are adopting a different attitude, which is, if the regulator cannot change things, what we are going to do is that we're going to organize ourselves, help each other, get our allies to tap into the amazing talent pool of LGBT people. One of the things that I do, which is very simple, is that I organize dinners throughout the United States, where I bring aspiring directors and existing directors, a lot of them LGBT. In itself, it's already useful, because we're not part of certain informal network, so we have to create our own network.

Jennifer Brown:

Right.

Fabrice Houdart:

And so, already, this is an added value.

Jennifer Brown:

Thank you for doing those dinners. They're wonderful, and I think those personal connections really, really last. How do you prevent, I don't know if there's a name for it, but you'll know what I'm talking about, sometimes the underrepresented board member or leader gets set up to fail, gets assigned the particularly difficult task. So to your point earlier, we've got to be 150% compared to everybody's a hundred percent or less.

But we also end up finding ourselves in these triage low probability of success situations, so the "be a token" thing, which thing which I agree with, is there's this asterisk around it's tough to be at the trailblazer. Do you think there is veracity to that concept of some of us, once we get there, getting too much of a share of the most difficult, most arduous assignments, focus areas, responsibilities, et cetera? And you can answer that in the sense of just any leadership position. But I'm curious what you think about that.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, and I love that you say that, and to me, it comes back a little bit to what I mentioned earlier, which is what is done to us is not insignificant, and very often it's irreparable. And so what we suffer a lot from is imposter syndrome. We suffer a lot from sometimes people pleasing, right? Or accepting burden that we should not be accepting, and people can tap into that. Sometimes they can feel this weakness inside us. How would you not be weak? If you're a woman and you're raised in a world that tells you that you're a secondary character, how are you not going to carry that all of your life as a baggage? I always feel that for the rest of my life, I'm going to carry the burden of shame, right?

I have a very weird notion of myself that comes back to that incredibly long period in which I was isolated in my own secrets, right? Sometimes LGBT people think they have recovered, and they have not recovered. You know what I mean? It's almost impossible to recover. And so what I think, also a little bit the same way employee resource group are important, it's important to have someone that has gone through that experience with whom you can share, right? And very often, I'm a bit baffled that I look at incredibly talented people, and they will have a call with me and they already have the answer, but they still want to talk through it. I'm like, "Oh, wow. That's nice. I have added value just by listening to their doubts."

I think that's a bit the same reason why people really like the people that they meet at these dinners, is because they go through that same almost invisible experience that you cannot really explain. And so to respond to your question, what I think is really important is mentorship so that someone can be like, "Look, it looks like they're setting you up for failure. Why don't you raise the issue upfront?" or "Why don't you take a stance for yourself?" or "Frankly, if the writing is on the wall, why don't you have the freedom to walk out?" But it's very difficult. I know that all of these songs like wishy-washy psychology, but I wish, as a community, we would acknowledge more that what we have gone through is not insignificant. It really makes it difficult for us to evolve in the world, and it leads to stress and suffering.

Instead of constantly focusing on our resilience, which is a very American thing, refusing to be seen as a victim, always wanting to be seen as this empowered individual that is resilient, you know what would be better than resilient? Is not needing to be resilient. It would be for us to not have to go through this trauma in childhood, because I really believe it's trauma. Not everybody is experiencing it in the same way, is experiencing it in the same way, but we have to acknowledge that, for a lot of us, it was a very difficult experience, and it permeates what happened to us in the workplace. The workplace has an obligation to create an even playing field for us, and in fact, that's a very good reason for the private sector to support us in pride, is that they are paying the price of segregation and discrimination down the road when we come as employees, right?

Jennifer Brown:

I love what you just said. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to be resilient versus celebrating resilience? I appreciate what you said, that when we bring intersectionality into that, there are multiple battles that we're fighting. There's multiple baggage in history we're bringing with us, and negotiating and navigating, and all of it, many of us, 50% of us or so are still closeted in our professional roles, so let's not forget that this is not in the past.

Fabrice Houdart:

I love that. Sometimes I have candidates that call me and were like, they were married to a woman, gay men that were married to a woman five years ago, and just, it's pretty strange. You always have the feeling that everybody's out, but that's not the case at all.

Jennifer Brown:

It's not the case, not the case. I meet many people generationally, who are at the pinnacle of their career, that have been lying the whole time. It's so humbling to realize that when people like you and I, we're out for a living, and what a privilege that is, to be able to do what we do and be authentic in that. This has just been wonderful, Fabrice. I've learned so much, and you've reminded me of some really important things. What really stays with me is this beautiful example that you've given of the trauma we carry, and just making space for that and just acknowledging that that drives a lot of what we sign up for. Then, the fact that how hard we work and how hard we have to justify ourselves is driven by the trauma, right? And the trauma continues.

So it's not even like you can take it, encapsulate it, put it on the shelf, and say, "I'm done with that." We're never done with it. We will always be haunted. Then, the work becomes, to your point, mentorship, community, reaching out, saying, "Tell me. What am I not seeing right now?" Because the problem with no mentors and no role models is we don't have a sense of where we sit. We don't have a sense of what to look out for. We don't know how to protect ourselves, and in our want to exceed stereotypes and in our want to prove everyone wrong and to earn our place, we exhaust ourselves. I think that's true for every underrepresented identity. So we've got to be careful of our boundaries, but also line up our support. That can be include allies, by the way, I think. Although they may not know the nuances of the kinds of things that we face.

Fabrice Houdart:

Oh my God. I love everything you said. I think that's so true. Very often, a lot of what happens to us is so difficult to put in words, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah, yeah.

Fabrice Houdart:

And sometimes people are like, "Why are they talking about something so personal?" But it is incredibly personal, right?

Jennifer Brown:

Yeah.

Fabrice Houdart:

When I'm describing it at the World Bank, and switching and blushing, because I had felt I was inferior to straight guys, people are like, "Why is he telling that?" But this was a very important experience. And then the other thing that I love is when you talk about fellowship, right? When you say, "Look, community," talking about what happened to us. Maybe Pride, right? Going to Pride, and saying loud that we're proud about who we are, is very important. Then, the other thing that you said, which I love, is that sometimes we pursue success, not even aware that this is because we want to prove to ourselves we are worthy, but maybe that's not really what we want. Shifting a little bit from, "Oh. I need to be successful," or "I need to be financially successful," to, "I want to be of service to others, and my experience to serve others is important," because I feel that a lot of my life was in that race to basically tell my dad, "Look, I am worthy. I belong, and I'm fine," and that's a ridiculous thing to chase after.

Jennifer Brown:

I know. As an adult too.

Fabrice Houdart:

Yeah, I know.

Jennifer Brown:

We need to get over it.

Fabrice Houdart:

I know, and I can tell you, I get the best therapy that money can buy.

Jennifer Brown:

Oh. I can so relate. More on that someday, but Fabrice, where can folks continue to learn from you, with you, follow your work, read your stuff. I know you probably have a website that you want to let people know about, but everybody, I really recommend the newsletter as a wonderful way to start. I think you charge a bit for it. I'm like, "Yes, sign me up," because it's such quality stuff. Everybody, I really, before we tie up, the other thing I'm really mindful of is what you said about tying together the Disney story, the Budweiser story, the Target story, and being careful what media is telling us, that's really an aha for me, to be very cautious of what I promote, what I share, what I echo, because it is being fed in a certain way.

I think that is such a beautiful reminder for our community to really be judicious, because we are being listened to, and what we elevate to a level of importance and how we interpret something that's happening, it really matters, but it's not the truth. It just happened to me yesterday, I'm speaking at Berkshire Hathaway Energy in Oregon this month, and I'm really looking forward to it, and their story for LGBTQ inclusion is new, but very remarkable. I'm so excited to meet all of them and take my picture with 400 new friends. But it checked me, because I was coming into that process of preparation with my client. I was in this mood of feeling that we are encountering obstacles at a level that we hadn't before.

That might be true, but at the same time, I'm being shown examples, so many examples, of strength, consistency, and continued investment and support, even in a company like that, where arguably their leader of that company has gone on the record as saying certain things in the public domain, and yet in the same exact environment and organization, you will see shining examples of all the right things. So two, I think we have to be nuanced in, when we answer questions, yes or no, good or bad, and by the way, I was also sharing Chick-fil-A. There was an article on their DEI effort recently, which I didn't even know existed, because I presumed that they didn't have one because of the fact that our community has had such a boycott.

Fabrice Houdart:

I completely agree. And look, today I only spoke about the bad thing, but look, same-sex marriage is probably going to be approved in India.

Jennifer Brown:

I mean, Incredible.

Fabrice Houdart:

In four years, decriminalization went from 78 country to 68. Singapore decriminalized. Korea is considering a bunch of bills. It's true. I have the same tendency of raising the alarm, which we should because things are happening-

Jennifer Brown:

Yes.

Fabrice Houdart:

... But we should also acknowledge tremendous inexplicable progress.

Jennifer Brown:

That's such a beautiful note to end on, everybody. So be careful what you share. Amplify. Yes, raise attention and shine the light on the problems, but also don't forget to look at the arc of the moral universe, right? We are bending it hard. We have been bending it. Many of us in different communities have been leaning hard, hard, hard into this. And we have some really incredible results to show for it.

Speaking of that, Fabrice, you've played a role in all that, so just want to express appreciation for you, the work you're doing to diversify boards and make it safe for us to contribute and healthy for us to contribute in a way that sustains us, that is sustainable and not working out our own issues, but really allowing us to step into our true power, and not have that be interrupted or distracted by our own sense of our limitations and what the world has told us, and that's true liberation for all of us.

So thank you for joining me today. Hi. This is Jennifer. Did you know that we offer a full transcript of every podcast episode on my website over at jenniferbrownspeaks.com? You can also subscribe so that you get notified every time a new episode goes live. Head over there now to read my latest thoughts on diversity, inclusion and the future of work, and discover how we can all be champions of change by bringing our collective voices together and standing up for ourselves and each other.

Doug Foresta:

You've been listening to The Will to Change: Uncovering True Stories of Diversity and Inclusion with Jennifer Brown. If you've enjoyed the episode, please subscribe to the podcast on iTunes. To learn more about Jennifer Brown, visit Jenniferbrownspeaks.com. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back next time with a new episode.